George Takei: What if Muslims Owned Hobby Lobby and Tried Imposing Sharia Law on Employees?

george-takeiI’ve often said that these conservatives wading into the tricky waters of claiming “religious freedom” to justify breaking (or passing) laws should really be careful what they wish for.  It’s advice I’d give to all of those conservatives who are celebrating the Supreme Court’s Hobby Lobby ruling.

And based on his brilliant response to that ruling, George Takei seems to be an individual who understands this as well.

Posting his response on the website for his play Allegiance, Takei made several fantastic points concerning not only the hypocrisy of this ruling, but the dangerous precedent it could set going forward.

Takei wrote, “The ruling elevates the rights of a FOR-PROFIT CORPORATION over those of its women employees and opens the door to all manner of claims that a company can refuse services based on its owner’s religion.”

“Think about the ramifications: As Justice Ginsberg’s stinging dissent pointed out, companies run by Scientologists could refuse to cover antidepressants, and those run by Jews or Hindus could refuse to cover medications derived from pigs (such as many anesthetics, intravenous fluids, or medications coated in gelatin).” he continued.

And that’s the slippery slope for which this ruling potentially opens the door.  Where will the line be drawn where you say to a company, “Sorry, but your religious beliefs aren’t protected?”

What if someone who owns a corporation is anti-vaccine?  What if they then say it’s against their religious beliefs for their company to offer health care that covers vaccines?  Based upon this Supreme Court ruling, they could theoretically be within their rights to claim that.

But the best point Takei made was in a direct shot at right-wing ignorance.  He wrote, “In this case, the owners happen to be deeply Christian; one wonders whether the case would have come out differently if a Muslim-run chain business attempted to impose Sharia law on its employees.”

As we all know, when these conservatives talk about “religious freedoms” they’re really only referring to Christianity.

He also went on to make the point that Hobby Lobby has invested in companies which produce the morning after pill and it gets much of its inventory from China, a country where forced abortions are common.

In other words, they’re blatant hypocrites.

“Hobby Lobby is not a church. It’s a business — and a big one at that,” Takei continued.  “Businesses must and should be required to comply with neutrally crafted laws of general applicability. Your boss should not have a say over your healthcare. Once the law starts permitting exceptions based on “sincerely held religious beliefs” there’s no end to the mischief and discrimination that will ensue. Indeed, this is the same logic that certain restaurants and hotels have been trying to deploy to allow proprietors to refuse service to gay couples.”

Once again, he’s absolutely right.

For some reason conservatives seem to think that a lack of options equates to “more” freedom.  Before this ruling, women working at Hobby Lobby had the option to have access to these contraceptives.  Now they won’t.

If the owners of Hobby Lobby reject specific types of contraceptives, that’s fine.  They don’t have to use them.  But now their beliefs are being imposed on women who might not share those same beliefs.

Take a good look, because that’s how an employer can determine an employee’s health care coverage.  Because a woman working at Hobby Lobby now can’t get health care coverage for certain contraceptives, not because she’s against them, but because her employer is.

How exactly is that respecting her religious freedoms?

Takei also points out religion is a way many conservatives have tried justifying discrimination against homosexuals.  These “religious freedom” bills that essentially give businesses the right to deny service to homosexuals based on their religious beliefs.

The bottom line is, religion has no place in government or in business.  If someone wants to express their religious views to others, they need to start a church – not a for-profit corporation.


Allen Clifton

Allen Clifton is a native Texan who now lives in the Austin area. He has a degree in Political Science from Sam Houston State University. Allen is a co-founder of Forward Progressives and creator of the popular Right Off A Cliff column and Facebook page. Be sure to follow Allen on Twitter and Facebook, and subscribe to his channel on YouTube as well.

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  • Melania Gulley

    I love George. even before he came out I adored hi,. And he is quite right and yet somehow the 5 male Conservative Supreme Court Justices seem to be unable to follow the logic of what their ruling does and have but religious rights of individual who just happen to own own of the biggest businesses in the world to deny someone else’s rights based on a very hypocritical stance. They don’t mind making money off dead babies in China and even investing their money in the birth control they claim to be against. They have proven above all else that their only true Religious belief is Money.

    • kickinitincrick

      Ridiculous. Poor baby who needs the “right” of someone else to buy their abortifacient. Here’s the sad truth. Feminists are forcing men to believe that women are illogical and that facts go as far as their feelings (or hormones). Your emotive and nonsensical arguments are doing your cause greater damage than the ignorance of the most misogynist redneck.

      • Nope.

        @kickin- here’s YOUR sad truth. Feminists don’t force men to believe that women are illogical. Men that hate feminists chose to listen to the ideas of the most extreme feminists, and decide to define all feminists by the extreme beliefs.
        Sounds like your inability to understand that there is a spectrum of feminists beliefs is causing the greatest damage.

      • ddd

        then distance yourself, proclaim them as heretics. if you want the benefit of the doubt, condemn them.

      • Julie Wickstrom

        You missed the point. Not only can corporations now pick and choose what health insurance they provide, the ruling gives more power to lifeless entities. I only hope we can put them in jail or give the death penalty to them someday. People > corporations.

      • ddd

        the ruling said that it was narrow in scope. this cannot be cited as precedent, it does not open itself to other interpretations. The justices specifically said that this pertained to contraceptives only and lower courts cannot use this ruling to justify other religious beliefs without bringing those cases also to the supreme court

    • Gini Denninger

      I agree, I no longer shop Hobby Lobby or Eden Foods. I also attempt to buy American made products even when paying more for them.

  • Sandra Carpenter

    Money talks,and you know what walks! Holly Lobby doesn’t care if anyone uses birth control,they just don,t want to pay for it!

    • BobLoblaw

      No, it isn’t about getting anything for free. They will not allow certain types of contraception on their prescription plan. I don’t get my prescriptions for free. I pay an amount that has been agreed on. So do the HL employees. They do not get free prescriptions of any kind.

      The mis-information about all this is mind boggling. Especially when it comes from women.

      Religion has no place in a business. Keep it in the church or wherever people practice their religion. The front page of the HL website is absolutely ridiculous right now.

  • Stephen Barlow

    What if, 20,000 employees decide a microcosm MUST have their RELIGIOUS FREEDOM ASSAULTED? ALL the HL UNION employees… nullify the 3-4 owners?

  • Kevin W. Hay

    Government, business, and religion.
    Religion pays homage to a God.
    Business pays homage to profit.
    Government pays homage to it’s people.
    Religion is to protect it’s followers from sin.
    Business is to protect it’s bottom line, products, and lastly, workers from unemployment.
    Government is to protect it’s people from wrong-doing, loss of freedom, other governments, and well, the wrong-doing of business and religion.
    I’ve simplified it, yes. And it should be, it’s gotten too complicated and the lines have gotten blurred, badly.
    Business does not have a vote in an election, but it’s influence is much more powerful than my one vote.
    And centuries ago we “separated” State from Church, but religion plays a very strong role bending the views of the decision-makers in our “secular” government.
    It’s when one religion or belief system is upheld higher than their total sum, in deciding right from wrong, that wrong-doing is inherently bred into those decisions.

    We need to simplify the identities of these three, and to insure that they are separate from one another, if we are to remain free.

  • Josh

    What if liberals imposed their beliefs on everyone else?

    Oh wait…

    • Nick Wride

      Like conservatives want to do?

      • nitemayr

        *constantly*

        Unless this means regulation of wealth, the accumulation thereof or the exercise of it. Then they don’t want anything to do with it.

    • John

      Why should ANYONE impose their beliefs on ANYONE? I certainly wouldn’t think of imposing my beliefs on YOU.

    • Joy

      Um, no, we try to KEEP specific beliefs from being imposed on others and thus leave the option open for each individual to follow his or her own conscience when it comes to personal medical and/or moral decisions. If you find contraceptives, abortion, sex before marriage, same sex marriage, etc., immoral, then you have every right not to use them, have one, do it, or marry a person of the same gender. But you DO NOT have the right to force others to follow your religious views by making laws prohibiting these things or using your position as someone’s employer to deny them access to any of these things. And contrary to popular Conservative opinion, NOT allowing you to impose your beliefs on others neither infringes on your religious freedom nor constitutes forcing beliefs on you. Is it really that difficult to understand?

      • BobLoblaw

        I think everybody wants everybody else to mind their own business. It doesn’t matter if you are on the left, right, or don’t give a crap about politics.

      • FisherofTruth

        but it does matter if you try to force me as an employer to pay for your morning after abortion pill

      • BobLoblaw

        Educate yourself on this matter. Nobody is asking their employer to pay for anything except for the hours they actually work.
        This is a matter of the prescription plan options the employer chooses. My current plan does not cover a particular migraine medication I prefer so I get a different one. The people responsible for picking the HL prescription program is doing the same thing.

        Another thing – Plan B (the morning after pill) is NOT an abortion pill. Abortions are done by a medical procedure. It is also not a prescription, anybody can buy one at a pharmacy. Even men!!! I suggest you researching exactly what Plan B is because you clearly do not understand what it is and how it works.

        The only way a pill can cause an abortion is if the pregnant woman overdoses on many many different types of prescription and even non-prescription pill. However, they are putting their life in jeopardy too. That is something totally different.

      • FisherofTruth

        sheesh.. now you are playing semantic games. you know darn well what is meant by morning-after abortive type ‘plan-b’ type pills. HL pays for 16 types of contraception. If you want a ‘plan-b’ pill pay for it yourself. contraceptives shouldn’t even be in the heathcare ACA to begin with.

      • BobLoblaw

        “If you want a ‘plan-b’ pill pay for it yourself.”
        No shit.. That is why I told you that it is not a perscription. Nobody is asking anybody to make it a prescription so it can be covered under a plan.

        Do you think that every time a couple has sex, it results in pregnancy?? No, that is why plan b is there. For the ‘just in case’ times. Every time a plan b is taken, it does not result in an “abortion”. In fact even if the egg WAS fertilized, it STILL wouldn’t be an abortion. Do you realize how many fertilized eggs are not viable. So many so that women don’t even know they lost a fertilized egg during their period.

        Learn about more about ortho novum. It is not exclusively used as birth control.

      • FisherofTruth

        i have no problem with any drug that is normally considered birth control being used as regular medicine to treat another illness. just as many women with PCOS take a version of the pill. in that case the drug is just a regular medicine to treat a medical problem.

        I also understand how the plan-b drugs work and how many on the left don’t consider them abortive since the egg hasn’t implanted yet. this will get argued uselessly back and forth

        let’s get back to everyone paying for their own birth control and everyone can use whatever method they want.

      • Kate

        Owning the business gives them the right to do what they believe in, and get it straight for once, they are not prohibiting employees from using birth control. They will not, in good conscience, pay for the FOUR types that cause the already fertilized egg to die. Is THAT so hard to understand? If it is, you are in a group who should have NO problem using all of the 20 types of birth control, so relax and do as you please.

      • Josh

        Not paying for something is not “imposing.” FORCING someone else to pay for what you want IS imposing.

        If you are still confused, all I can do is direct you to the dictionary entry for “imposing.”

  • Josh

    What if….shit tasted like butter?

    You could spread it on your toast.

  • Jeremy Rawley

    This is exactly why America needs French-style secularity.

    • nitemayr

      France suffered massive protests from Christians against gay marriage. They are “Secular” like the Republic of Ireland is “Secular” they are “Christian Secular” as in “as long as it is familiar and christian it is okay”

  • Adam

    Just wait for the inevitable lawsuit from a Hobby Lobby employee who is denied access to the contraceptives in question. How would the Supreme Court decide then?

    I’m sure we all know the answer to that question.

  • rossbro

    Separation of Church and State is THE most important idea brought up by the men who started this Country. How correct they were !

    • David Lumin

      But this isn’t a separation of Church and State issue This is a separation of business and church issue. This falls under the Free Exercise Clause. The Government or the public cannot impose its will on private businesses in matters of religion, unless the government has compelling interest and has NO other path to reach its goals. The Government had OTHER options to use to cover those medications/devices that Hobby Lobby did not feel comfortable providing. This also comes down to whose responsibility it is to pay. The Government gave exemptions to Churches, etc. They gave exemptions to their political friends.

      As a private citizen and a business owner, I will not allow any employee to “require” me to break my religious beliefs, and you have NO RIGHT to tell me to either follow what we tell you or go out of business.

      Reproductive Rights is not covered under the Constitution. Nowhere in the Bill of Rights or any other amendment to the United States Constitution, does it say, “Women have the right to free birth control provided by their employer” That was a law passed by the Congress and the President in the middle of the night, with NO reading, and no debate. While the Supreme Court ruled that the ACA was constitutional in reference to the tax code and the 16th amendment, it did not rule on the entire law, or the regulations passed by HHS.

      The HHS was smacked down on the merits of LAW, not on feel good politics. Liberals love to use feel good politics to say these should be rights protected by law.

      When I go to work, my religious beliefs go with me. They aren’t packed up in a drawer until Sunday, nor am I required to. That is what the Free Exercise Clause in the 1st Amendment was about. To stop the Government from interfering with day to day religious practices and day to day beliefs. My belief goes beyond my church doors and doesn’t stop at the door of my business.

      • AnimalLover2

        Yes, but aren’t you so glad that your First Amendment right to a hard-on via Viagra or Cialis under the Hobby Lobby plan are covered. I don’t see these mentioned in the Constitution EITHER … so your argument is crap.

      • David Lumin

        The argument is it is up to HOBBY LOBBY to decide what is in their benefits package. What you are referring to is known as good old fashion Communism. Forcing people to do what the STATE wants them to do.

        It is my choice as a business owner to decide if want to cover Viagra but not cover Plan B. It is my choice as a business owner to pay you $10 an hour instead of $20 an hour. As a business owner you are my employee, which means, when you get hired, you AGREE to all terms of the contract. ALL TERMS. If you don’t agree, then you go elsewhere.

        Do you know why businesses have left this country? Because of people like you and your demands. You demand higher taxes, more regulations, higher pay for less work, more vacation time, and more perks.

        They moved overseas to give jobs to people who WANT to work.

      • alanna25

        Businesses moved jobs overseas to save $ pure and simple. The people who work overseas are slaves making $1 a day. Don’t kid yourself.

      • Charles Vincent

        Don’t kid yourself alanna you can’t compare our standard of living to theirs nor can you say that the money companies offer them isn’t thier best option.

      • Problem is, when commercial choices are simply over things like wedding photographers and who makes wedding cakes, these are relatively simple, cheap services that can be easily replicated. When it comes to choosing a venue for a reception, that’s a lot trickier as choices are much more limited. That’s why it’s important to draw the line on public accommodation as far towards accommodation as possible and as far away from “religious freedom” as possible.

      • Curtis Scarbrough

        The Koch Brothers’ religion is capitalism.

      • Flory Toto

        That line should only be drawn when the business goes on site. A wedding photographer would be forced to go TO a wedding he objected to and essentially be ‘held hostage’ by his job. A cake decorator would not. Bake the cake, put the names on it, and insist that the couple use a topper they buy separately since the baker doesn’t stock same gendered toppers. How would The Right react if a Middle Eastern refused to serve un covered or unescorted women in his Diner? The Right would FLIP!

      • blueturtles

        It’s not your choice to pay your employee $2 an hour instead of $10. Or to force her to have sex with you in order to keep her job.

        Don’t pretend you don’t comprehend labor laws.

      • AQ

        Oh, he comprehends them–he just wants to get rid of them, that’s all.

      • David Lumin would be a really good 19th-century robber baron.

      • Charles Vincent

        robber baron… that’s a myth.
        https://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=dmzZ8lCLhlk#t=30

      • mpezz

        But you CAN’T choose to pay $1.50/hr. Or choose to work a 10 year old in a factory for 15 hours straight. Or deny a lunch break to someone who works over 6 hours. You can’t choose to fire someone because of their race. You can’t force someone to work with deadly chemicals without proper protection.

        You can’t do these things unless you don’t understand labor laws. Then you shouldn’t be running a business.

        “They moved overseas to give jobs to people who WANT to work.”

        Yeah, people really WANT to work for a dollar a week in sweatshops making the same American flag you probably display so proudly in your front yard.

      • Charles Vincent

        “Yeah, people really WANT to work for a dollar a week in sweatshops
        making the same American flag you probably display so proudly in your
        front yard.”

        You fail to recognize that the “dollar” a day that companies pay them is their best option in their country If it wasn’t they wouldn’t make flags for a dollar a day.

      • mpezz

        Best option or not, that doesn’t excuse American companies taking advantage of the cheap labor in other countries with lax labor laws. Their still paying shit wages to people who aren’t protected with safety and health standards.

      • Charles Vincent

        “Their still paying shit wages to people who aren’t protected with safety and health standards.”
        This isn’t the doing of the company its the doing of the country they employee people in. Secondly companies that move manufacturing to other countries are bound by that countries laws.

      • Kate

        Viagra or Cialis doesn’t end a life, now does it? You’re a blind, deaf and dumb person if you’re not getting this point!

      • BilbySA

        Contraception doesn’t end lives either, Kate, it PREVENTS conception. You would know this if you’d had a proper education, and it would have spared you the appearance of idiocy in calling somebody else dumb whilst saying something…dumb.

      • Kate

        REALLY? I had NO idea……………! The four kinds that HL objects to, morally, do not prevent conception, they prevent an ALREADY fertilized/conceived egg from attaching to the uterus. May be a fine point to you, but it’s life or death of a person to me and HL. Use the other forms (are 16 not ENOUGH???) that prevent the conception in the first place, or heaven forbid abstain. I know, “NO one is gong to do THA!!,” which is why I’m for covering the other 16.

      • LaDonna West

        Kate your body can dispel an already fertilized egg on its own. Or did you not learn that in school? Just because an egg is fertilized does not mean that it implants. Birth control is no one else’s business but the woman who needs it, her doctor and if she has one her partner. My boss does not need to know my health problems it is not any their business. If a man can get a pill to get an erection and possibly impregnate a woman than that same woman should be able to get any kind of birth control she wants to prevent a pregnancy. Also did you forget that not all women who are on birth control need it to prevent a pregnancy but take it for other health issues. It seems you need to be educated because you clearly don’t know much about health issues or pregnancy.

      • Kate

        Trying to be a condescending person, LaDaonna? So let’s see, this isn’t a hard concept: SOME people, yes, people who answer to God first, and everyone else second, run businesses. These people DO get to say whether they’ll PAY for these forms of contraception that they are morally opposed to, MORALLY, not to be jerks, not to invade a woman’s body, blah, blah, blah. I fully realize how a woman’s body works, and I get that you think if you’re a snotty, condescending person to me, I’ll cry, but I won’t. I have used contraception for endometriosis, so I DO know a lot about “other uses”, as well as using it for birth control., Not against it. Against the abortifacive kinds, period. Made sure I wasn’t being prescribed those, and get ready, LaDonna……………..I PAID for those pills myself, for YEARS. I didn’t even expect my BOSS or COMPAN to pay for them. I did try to get my INSURANCE CO to cover them, as medically necessary, and eventually, with my doctor’s help, that happened, but it wasn’t 100% coverage, and I still had to pay for the premium. Maybe you don’t pay for your premium? Maybe you’ve been taught to “expect things” from others. I do not know. I just know you have a closed mind, about how any person who owns a company, and who answers to Jesus could have a moral dilemma in paying for someone who is in their employ to obtain those lousy four kinds. Liberals will NOT rest until all 20 kinds are forceably covered *and* paid for by a Christian employer. Talk about “tolerance on the left”. Seems there’s no such thing when it comes down to it. Over and out. I’ve spoken my peace numerous times, but a closed mind is a waste of time, and time is too precious to spend trying to reason. I’m sure you feel the same about me. I get it.

      • LL11

        Kate – ignoring the abortion issue for now, and focusing only on the religious freedom argument that was brought up in this article. When your business is bought out by a Muslim owner and wants to impose Sharia law or force you to wear a hijab or even just enforce fasting during Ramadan, are you okay with that as they are answering to God? The article points out some other religions are against almost every medical procedure, If I am a Christian Scientist, can I, because I believe I am answering to God, deny you all health care. Is this religious freedom only for Christians, only for people you agree with, or not?

      • Kate

        Being honest, I obviously don’t believe that everyone answers to the true and only God. I don’t believe Allah is god, but in our society, if we’re giving religious allowances to one group, I think all should have some. I’m concerned, in this legal case, about life and death, as I believe God spells it out, and as science and medicine often agree. That’s a very good question about if a Christian Scientist owns a biz, and wants to deny all healthcare coverage to their employees. We will have to see if a court agrees with that. I’d say, at a minimum, they would have to hand over the amount of money the insurance coverage would cost, so the employees could buy a plan. Not even sure Mr. Obama has left that freedom to do so up to us anymore. I wasn’t even in favor of the ACA, I wanted that 15% he kept quoting, who were not covered in the US to BE covered by a plan like Medicare. Always said that, that it would be less expensive, and solve the problem. Thanks for your thoughtful response. The others who have not done so, I’m not wasting my time on. The “tolerance and love” was really shiny in the man who used a mouthful of swearwords, and even called me the “C” word. NICE!

      • Gini Denninger

        Ok then Kate, you hit on the solution…Hobby Lobby “hands over the amount of money the (insurance) contraceptive coverage would cost, so the employees can buy a (plan) contraceptive!” Seems convoluted, but hey, if you can work with that so can I. Everyone is happy! But sadly, I am pretty sure you would be screaming if you were required by your employer to wear a burka and if you were segregated from men while at work. Oh, and the possibility of becoming a supervisor over the entire department…no, no! It IS against some religious beliefs for women to be treated equally, much less have dominion OVER men!!!! People like you are applauding the beginning of a slippery slope. Religious freedom does not apply ONLY to your narrow form of religious belief. This is why our founding father wisely sought a separation of church and state. The Supreme Court ruling was extremely erroneous.

      • Gini Denninger

        Kate, I paid for all my own contraceptives through the years, never had coverage through insurance, since I had no insurance. But I did go to Planned Parenthood all those years where I could buy affordable contraceptives…but religious fanatics are equally determined to shut down Planned Parenthood…check out Texas and the determination by its governor to end family planning clinics under the guise that state monies are bring used to fund abortons!!! So where do you propose a heathen,such as I, get affordable contraceptives and other female health care if your ilk are successful down the road, in denying all kinds of reproductive healthcare, thanks to your narrow religious beliefs???!!!!

      • FisherofTruth

        i believe walmart sells the pill for around $9 a month if you can believe the news. you can buy bulk discount condoms online. no excuse for not being able to afford birth control without other people paying for it.

      • Gini Denninger

        So fish, tell me, you ok with all the man pills like viagra etc still being included in the insurance program? That ok with you? You are so missing the point here. By selecting items to take away that has been previously standard practice to include in insurance, thanks to so called religious beliefs, you open the door to lots of scenarios. I hope they come to pass and then I want to hear how you will think then. When the seventh day adventist who does not believe in blood transfusions has paying for those removed from the insurance they are offering, or you are no longer allowed to work in the same room with a woman, because you work for am company owned by very conservative muslims…the list goes on. So what if pills are cheap at Walmart. That is not the point. And you said you believe, you really have no clue as to what the pill costs at Walmart. Furthermore, there are many varieties and a huge range of cost. It is not other people paying for it. But when you have a heart attack, remember your treatment is paid for by “other people”…those who have the same insurance. Just remember that and stop being so selfish. Its ok to pay for you and your needs, but not a woman’s need to not become pregnant. That is idiotic at best.

      • FisherofTruth

        ok, you are changing the topic, but ok. Viagra is not always covered. AND viagra treats a medical problem. a problem that can spiral into depression, breaking up families, and other things. I have no issue when female birth control drugs are issued to fix medical problems like PCOS. If you read the ruling you will see there is a narrow focus and you will not see a doomsday explosion of thousands of crazy religious exemptions. Paying for recreational sex is not a ‘need’ as you call it. if you want to start debasing yourself by using words like ‘idiotic’ look in the mirror at the misguided brainwashed uninformed woman there.

      • Kate

        Now that “everyone” will be covered by the ACA, the really isn’t a need for PP. Everyone will be able to go to a doctor in an office, and pay, or have it paid for by the government. If one is poor enough to quality for the subsidies, they will probably be on assistance of various forms, and the ACA will solve all of their medical problems. That’s what has been told to us. I used to go to PP as a teenager, and in my twenties. If a person wants an abortion, or other health care that PP has provided till now, they can get both in any medical facility, so again, no need for PP. I would have thought PP would have fought the ACA for just that reason, given how many employees stand to lose jobs, from maintenance workers, to nurses, office staff and doctors.

      • Kate

        I used to take continuous oral BCPs for endometriosis, so I’m fully aware of the other health reasons. I made sure I was not taking the type that *could* cause the same result as a spontaneous abortion (yes EVERYONE WHO’S ASKED ME, I REALIZE THOSE HAPPEN NATURALLY). My doctor actually talked about all the forms and told me he didn’t use those types, to his credit! There have been other medical advances, like uterine ablation, for women like me who had all of their children, or didn’t want any more, yet were plagued by excessive bleeding and pain. I hate to tell you LaDonna, but your boss already has had knowledge, if they desire to know, of seeing all of your insurance conditions. The ins. cos and businesses discuss this when the insurance companies (not sure if the ACA remedied this, and if it does I’d be happy) re-negotiate the contract with the businesses each year. They present information of who has cancer, who has HIV, who has endometriosis, and a zillion other conditions that cost money when the ins. is used. It’s not fair, but it has been this way at LEAST since the 80s. LIke I said, I hope the ACA makes it so if we have to pay these HIGH premiums and HIGH deductibles, higher than pre Obamacare, that at least we have more confidentiality. But know this: that knowledge is now in the hands of the government, via the IRS, not the individual insurances alone. Now, it’s there *and* at the insurance carrier and at the doctors and hospitals, and in ALL of their computer systems, so because we live in a computer age, it’s not confidential. At least we cannot get to each others’ information. I’m not a hacker, so I can’t anyway. I don’t care to.

      • Gini Denninger

        Actually Kate, HIPAA guidelines make access to who views your healthcare records very difficult. Your insurance company cannot reveal any information on anyone they insure without prior consent by the patient, and to a very specific and narrow window of data users…In fact, most insurance workers only process health care data that is specifically coded to be abstract, so that patients cannot be identified! Your misguided fear seems to be due to very poor information you have taken to heart. Sadly, it seems you support laws that do not benefit you, but actually work against you.

      • Curtis Scarbrough

        I’d disagree about it being the partners business, but other than that you’re spot on.

      • LaDonna West

        I am married so that is why I said partner. It doesn’t just effect me anymore. I realize some aren’t in a serious relationship and that is fine. Just for me my husband would need to know.

      • Curtis Scarbrough

        Fair enough.

      • Catherine Bensinger Graves

        actually as many as up to 80% of fertilized eggs naturally fail to implant in the uterine lining, hence, no pregnancy. So much unacknowleged tragic :loss of life”. Who’s standing up for those fertilized eggs? lol. Conception is an abstract, a process CONCEPT. Why so little concern for all that loss of “life”? What are the right to lifers going to DO about that? Those 4 contraceptives do not cause abortion, regardless of any sincerely held religious belief, any more than the natural occurance of failure to implant is “abortion”, What would you have happen? Lock up every woman with a fertilized egg who doesn’t become pregnant? …or experiences a miscarriage – medico-legally referred to as a spontaneous abortion? ..because they must have done SOMETHING bad to an unborn “baby” for it to happen… Since you’re living in Wonderland – Off with their heads! AN individual’s right to LIBERTY trumps their employer’s allegedly “sincerely held” religious beliefs when then infringe upon an individual’s LIBERTY. That’s why several State’s current marriage inequality laws are being invalidated ALL OVER THE PLACE. The same as segregated educaion, and anti interracial association and marriage laws were (which still chaps a lot of people’s asses, and tough shit). p.s. those “sincerely held” beliefs did not prevent the plan from providing access to “the 4” prior to the ACA, the corporation which is a legal liability shield for owners who want it both ways…strategically opted to NOT have their plan grandfathered. Also, those beliefs do not extend to the general operation of other aspects of their business anyway – making them at the very least hypocrites, more likely perjurors. This was politics cloaked in religion, but the case did not rest on those facts. Here’s a fact for you…The Supreme Court has and does issue decisions containing errors…not often, but they have and they DO. It is my sincerely held belief that this case will eventually become one of those held to be decided in error, and I would never expect or force anyone to agree with MY beliefs or condition any employer/employee offered accepted and earned benefit upon it. I can’t wait for the those with other “sincerely held beliefs” besides Christianity, who will most assuredly jump on the bandwagon to go for it…and then for the challenges begin.

      • Doc

        I get so amused at all the comments that are being posted concerning the Hobby Lobby decision. This would be a non issue that would have never raised its ugly head except for the fact that the “contraception mandate” was made well after the ACA law was passed by a non-congressional approved manner. The constitution clearly states that all laws must be approved by congress and then signed by the president before taking affect. Non of this happened and the ACA would have never passed in the first place if this mandate had been included. Why do you think that Nancy Pelosi kept declaring that congress must pass the bill so that they could know what was in the bill. Why did they not let congress or the American public have the promised 7 days to read the bill instead of forcing passage after just 2 days. They knew that the public would find the several hundred places where policy could be made by the following manner by the following wording in the bill; “as deemed necessary by the secretary of HHS”. No congressional accountability. Had there been congressional oversight and the required congressional approval for this mandate it would have been a non starter and never entered into the ACA as such teh Supreme Court ruled correctly.

      • blueturtles

        Actually, Plan B normally prevents fertilization of an egg. It actually prevents ovulation. Sperm hang out for a few days waiting for an egg to drop. Plan B prevents that egg from dropping.

        Mirena, also banned by Hobby Lobby, is often used to stop menorrhagia. I know women who had this done for that exact reason. It’s an alternative to hysterectomy, and therefore much more sensible for women hoping to get pregnant one day.

        Mirena is much, much, much safer than hysterectomy. But I suppose you, like Hobby Lobby, think losing women (even mothers) is okay, so long as any possibility of a pregnancy is not nullified.

        Your science is bad, and your logic is bad.

      • AQ

        But blueturtles, don’t you know? GOD created science for his glory! All that HL is doing is rejecting Satan’s perversion of it…or something.
        (note for the stupid: that was sarcasm.)

      • Kate

        God DID give us scientific minds, and I’m very thankful for that. Medicine, is just one area of science that does, indeed, often glorify God. God gives us the very breath used to deny Him, to blaspheme his Name, and he allows it, and gives us more breath. Gracious.

      • AQ

        I think you mean that you think your god gives you the breath that you use to deny science whenever it puts the lie to your toxic and abusive belief system.

      • AQ

        Kate, lrn2science–an overwhelming number of fertilized eggs fail to implant naturally. I guess that makes your god the biggest abortionist ever, hmm?

      • This is where you are wrong, you stupid bitch. They prevent conception they do NOT abort. Shut the fuck up already. You’re a complete idiot and nothing you say is even remotely correct. Fucking research shit before opening your stupid cunt mouth. FUCK!

      • Allison

        Sorry you are incorrect. These DO act as abortifacents (the 4 that Hobby Lobby has an issue with).
        Copper IUD – no doubt works to kill the embryo by making uterine environment hostile so will not implant.
        Hormonal IUD – first works to decrease chance of ovulation BUT if this fails and ovulation and fertilization occur, back up method is that it then works like the copper IUD and prevents implantation – killing embryo.
        Ella and morning after pills – first work by decreasing chance of ovulation and chance of fertilization BUT if fertilization occurs, they make uterine environment hostile to prevent implantation – killing embryo.

      • Kate

        Thank you, for your comment. I don’t know why it’s hard to understand that the other types prevent the conception, and these have the ABILITY to kill and prevent the embryo from implanting, which equals killing said embryo. I don’t know why the people who believe this can’t have a voice and a choice to use the conception-preventing types, and those who do not believe it, use the other 16 methods. Sixteen methods is a LOT of CHOICES. Thank you Allison.

      • I agree with your sentiment and appreciate your frustration, but there’s absolutely no reason to call any woman a “bitch” or a “cunt,” no matter how much you disagree with her. It just reflects back on you, and the reflection is not good.

      • Moiraz

        Thankyou BB for telling that foul mouthed guest off. There was absolutely no need to use such language about this subject.

      • Kate

        Yup, unfortunately, the reason I’m not posting anymore, I don’t have the power to change anyone’s mind or opinion, thought I’d give mine, which was silly of me. Same old “tolerance and diversity, except if someone like me disagrees or dares to give the reasons why.” Plain truth is unless one IS convinced by the Spirit of God, this *won’t* make sense. I DO see the danger of the “slippery slope”. I WISH it wasn’t setting us up to be abused BY that ruling. I am conflicted: I agree with the Greene’s heartfelt dilemma of feeling they are sinning if they pay for “the four”, but I also see the future of various religious beliefs that do not have to do with BASIC life issue. The reason people are attacking me, is because they do not believe I, or the Greene’s, or millions of others are correct that life begins at conception. Only GOD CAN convince a person of that. I did not always believe it either!! Anyway, I know you disagree with my beliefs, but at least you have a sensible set of manners and stood up for me, so I thank you. A little kindness goes a long way in the world!

      • Kate

        Thank you! I appreciate a person who disagrees with me, but has manners and kindness. The amount of sheer sarcasm and The Guest’s disgusting reply is such a turnoff to real discussion.

      • FisherofTruth

        @Kate – thanks for taking the time and energy to respond to so many of the uninformed/misinformed people in this thread.

      • Kate

        You are welcome. I took such an unbelievably hostile beating over the last days, that I had started deleting the notices from Disqus, but for whatever reason, today, I looked at this one, and then saw Allisons, so I thank you both! We are not here to be intolerant jerks for FUN, we firmly believe (as much as those who differ believe in *their* opinion) this from a spiritual point of view, and it *isn’t* fun being the one who stands for that – but this group of commenters are rude, hostile, ill-informed, but I still do not reject their right to an opinion, any more than I feel the right to mine.

      • Kate

        I hope you don’t have any direct contact with women, be it a wife, girlfriend, or daughters, because your language to a stranger is deplorable, and I know that individuals with that much anger to a stranger, are no doubt, treating anyone in your life who differs with you, horribly.

      • Curtis Scarbrough

        I’m not sure where in the bible you’re getting this ‘life begins at conception’ nonsense. Everything I’ve seen says life begins at first breath.

      • Kate

        Nope, read Psalm 139. God makes and God takes life. It begins in the womb (or in our modern times, sometimes in a test tube).

      • Curtis Scarbrough

        I’m guessing you refer to the part where it says something about god knitting the writer of the psalm together in their mothers womb? That doesn’t mean they’re alive yet. If you’ll recall, Adam was fully formed before he was given life.

      • Kate

        LOL, I have to chuckle at this. You are comparing the one 100% human being created fully formed, to the ZILLIONS of embryos 🙂 Our pro life, pro abortion dilemma sure would be solved if everyone was fully formed, but we’d miss out on infants, toddlers, children, and teen agers. A for Efford Curtis 🙂

      • Kate

        Alive yet? Doesn’t an embryo need to be alive to grow to every single state afterward? This is the basis for the view me and so many others hold: you can go backward from the day a baby is born, and ask: is it life, the day before birth? How about the day before that, the week before that, the month, two months, etc. until the day of conception. If you pick a time in between, it doesn’t make even common sense. Yes, I’m familiar with the time period in the first weeks some hold to. I am also not saying just because a “life” may not be viable, outside of the womb, that it isn’t life. Life is life, from conception to death, and everything in between, and ALL deserve the respect and dignity of not being killed.

      • Curtis Scarbrough

        I personally think it’s when brain activity begins, which I think is around 17 weeks or so. Of course, for a lot of people it never really starts, and they wind up joining the republican party.

      • Curtis Scarbrough

        Still there, there are multiple other references that indicate that life begins with first breath.

      • Kate

        Like what? I’m happy to read things. Babies breath *through* their mom’s amniotic fluid, BTW, while in the womb.

      • Curtis Scarbrough

        By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.

        9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army…

        13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

        Ezekiel 37 9-10, 13-14

        If he should set his heart to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.
        Job 34: 14-15

        Thus says God, the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it:

        But most importantly is the part where god says not to take any of this literally

        Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
        -Matt. 13:13

      • Flory Toto

        No they don’t… They get ALL nutrients from their umbilical Cord. If you were drowning underwater, would you call THAT breathing? That’s why Doctors have to encourage babies to take their first breath sometimes. Some babies don’t always listen to the reflex.

      • ghhshirley

        Plan B and Ella DELAY ovulation. If an egg as already been released and fertilized, they have no effect on pregnancy. A fertilized egg is not pregnancy. When an egg is fertilized by a sperm in a test tube, does the doctor declare the woman pregnant? No. Pregnancy occurs only after a fertilized egg has been implanted in the uterus.

        Futhermore, last Tuesday the Supreme Court expanded their ruling to include ALL forms of contraception.

      • Allison

        Not true. Ella and plan B CAN effect a fertilized embryo and prevent it from implanting. Look at the physiology of these pills.

        As to the test tube example – IVF – it is not true that these situations are not called “pregnancy” until implantation in the uterus. Once the fertilized egg is placed into the women she technically is pregnant. She will not be considered to have an established pregnancy until it has implanted in the uterus through.
        Because with IVF, what happens if the fertilized egg stays in the Fallopian tube rather than goes into the uterus and in the Fallopian tube it grows, what is it called? It is called an ectopic PREGNANCY!

      • Flory Toto

        The Point is, a business has NO religion. Now don’t get me wrong. I don’t see contraception as a necessary medical expense (Save for Plan B from a rape or Birth Control for endocrine problems ) I REALLY think Birth Control shouldn’t be a mandated thing. That said, a company cannot force it’s religious views upon its employees. Seriously… there are religions that are based on Race. I passed a ‘congregation’ in New York one time that was proclaiming the American Black as the Chosen By God people and demonized white people. What would you say if they got an exception for allowing them to refuse insurance to their white employees based off their beliefs?

      • Curtis Scarbrough

        Neither does birth control. Not even the Plan B pill.

      • ghhshirley

        Neither does birth control.

      • nitemayr

        I, for one, cannot wait for that delightful attitude to meet head on with some other intractable belief system that counter-points your own.

        Their employees didn’t get free birth control, they worked for them and received them as part of the benefits plan that the received as employees. This is something like the 30th time I’ve seen a variation on the theme of “I don’t get something for free, so why should anyone else” which is such a defeated sounding attitude like “I get a daily beating before I go to bed, why should I expect anything less?”

        Why is it such a pain in your ass for someone else to get something, especially if they worked for it and understood they would receive it as part of their compensation package.

        It’s all well and good to say “they can quit” but this is the real world, where just quitting isn’t really a tenable option.

        You’ve let your “belief” over-ride your own rationality, as long as Hobby lobby agrees with you, you’re gonna be great. Which goes to my earlier point. It’s going to be entertaining when your delightful attitude meets a similarly intractable belief system which is a counterpoint of your own. What happens when a business is allowed to impose sharia law on its customers? What if AT&T or Comcast “get religion” and it isn’t the religion you like?

      • David Lumin

        If you actually listened to the Supreme Court They held it was “Closely Held” corporations with owners 5 or less. AT&T and Comcast have 1000’s of shareholders. And as far as the benefit package. Hobby Lobby gave them a benefit package of 16 out of 20 of the contraceptives. When you get hired, you are told this is what you are going to get. You don’t get to DEMAND something else. Yes, the benefit packages are paid by Hobby Lobby period. Those costs are not taken out of the base pay of the workers, it comes out of the companies INSURANCE money.

        When I hire an employee, I tell them up front. This is what I pay for, this is what YOU pay for. This is how much I’m going to pay you per hour. This is how much vacation time you are going to get. If you don’t like those benefits and pay, you go to the next business.

        You are not ENTITLED TO EVERYTHING YOU WANT. The Government can’t FORCE everything you want. The laws have been on the books for a LONG time and just because HHS decides that all 20 of the FDA contraceptives must be covered, there is other federal law and constitutional law that overrides it, PERIOD. You want religion out of people, and businesses, amend the Constitution and repeal RFRA, otherwise, you are just going to end up with the same argument.

      • All of this from the rich white Christian… Good job. You are the epitome of the stereotypical religious conservative business owner. Your beliefs supersede everyone else. You don’t give a shit about anyone else’s religious freedom, just your own. Your God, your political party, and your generation are a dying breed. Once you are gone, our society will finally be able to progress past this draconian belief system in favor of equal freedoms for all, not just that ones that benefit you.

      • FisherofTruth

        you have the freedom not to work for him and he has the freedom not to hire you. read your post. you come off as racist bigot my-way-is-the-right way. ironical since that is what you seem to be blathering about

      • Gini Denninger

        Freedom….right in this job market???!!!!!

      • FisherofTruth

        you are free to go to the library and look up jobs around the country. get your ass on a bus and go where the jobs are. OR, heaven forbid, learn a f**king skill that people will pay for. a lot of people would rather watch tv all evening instead of learning new knowledge and skills that could advance their lives

      • Gini Denninger

        Fish, you again. You have such pat answers. Just move to where the jobs are or go to the library. Right. I see you live in an insulated environment. You are unaware, it seems, of the sad and real fact that many people don’t have a car, or bus fare to “just move”, and they often don’t have any money to find a place to live when they get there, if they could. They may be really stuck. Keep in mind, there might not be any work, and one will take what ever job comes along (just to survive), even if the boss is refusing you the right to birth control, that you pay for when you pay your share of the insurance tab. Your attitude is patronizing and self centered. I will give you that there are people who CHOOSE to not work, but there are many who want to work and there is no work. Your attitude implies to me you think you are smarter and better than them. I say you are not, you are just luckier than them.

      • FisherofTruth

        there is always work. just maybe not the kind of work you want to do. i am not ‘luckier’ and have have worked harder in my life than the average 3 people off the street added together. and you exude the ‘i am wiser and kinder because i want to give all things to everyone’ attitude. you make everyone a victim. if you do some day labor you CAN afford a bus ticket. and i repeat again that the library is free and a huge source of knowledge, skills, and finding jobs.

      • Charles Vincent

        No he just understands how contracts work and you have issues differentiating between reality and fantasy.

      • ddd

        so angry

      • David Lumin

        First of all. I’m not rich. I don’t make $100k a year. Second of all, this is about WHO PAYS FOR YOUR BAD MISTAKES? Just because you want to go out and have unprotected sex, why is it MY place to cover your birth control? Why? I told my boys, “If you get a girl pregnant, because you were too stupid to wear a condom, don’t expect me to pay for your child. It is not my place to pay for your mistakes.” You don’t get it both ways. You can’t tell me to stay out of your doctor’s office and bedroom, while at the same time DEMANDING that I pay for it.

        It goes BOTH ways. I stay out of your bedroom, you stay out of my wallet. If you want me to pay for your birth control, I get to place restricts on HOW much I pay for, and what I pay for.

      • And this is where your narrow-minded conservatism kicks in. Never mind the fact that not everyone on birth control is out being a “whore” and having unprotected sex with random people. Some people, married people even, use contraceptives because they know they can’t afford children, or more children. Some people take certain contraceptives because of other health reasons. Or how about that young woman that just got raped and is scared…

        See, this is where your small minded views compared to how things really are completely negates your entire argument. “YOUR BAD MISTAKES” unraveled any credibility that you had. This isn’t about your belief in God. This is about you protecting your wallet, disguised as “religious belief”. And it makes you no different than Hobby Lobby.

      • David Lumin

        Again, sex is a PERSONAL choice. Why I am I responsible for paying for personal choices? My beliefs on birth control is simple. Its NOT my responsibility to cover it for you. My beliefs on abortion are simple. Only in cases of rape, incest, or life of mother. However, if a woman gets an abortion, that of course is her choice, but its MY choice not to have to PAY for it.

      • David Lumin

        And for the record, I never said my beliefs about paying for birth control, had to do with my religious views. I was talking about HL and their views. My views is about responsibility. I’m not responsible for the consequences of your sexual activities. If you want your birth control and your abortion pills, pay for it yourself.

      • David Lumin

        Again you took what I said out of context. What I said was my religious beliefs go with me to work. I never said my religious beliefs were in sync with Hobby Lobby’s. You just ASSUMED that they did.

        “When I go to work, my religious beliefs go with me. They aren’t packed up in a drawer until Sunday, nor am I required to. That is what the Free Exercise Clause in the 1st Amendment was about. To stop the
        Government from interfering with day to day religious practices and day to day beliefs. My belief goes beyond my church doors and doesn’t stop at the door of my business.”

        No where in that statement or any others did I say “I won’t pay for abortion pills or birth control because of my religious beliefs.”

        If you had read above, this is what I said.

        “Reproductive Rights is not covered under the Constitution. Nowhere in the Bill of Rights or any other amendment to the United States
        Constitution, does it say, “Women have the right to free birth control provided by their employer” That was a law passed by the Congress and
        the President in the middle of the night, with NO reading, and no debate. While the Supreme Court ruled that the ACA was constitutional in reference to the tax code and the 16th amendment, it did not rule on the entire law, or the regulations passed by HHS.”

        I believe under law a woman has a right to get an abortion, by the morning after pill, and or other forms of birth control. As long as she or her partner is the one paying for it.

      • mpezz

        “You are not ENTITLED TO EVERYTHING YOU WANT.”

        Sheesh. You’re a really angry, bitter white dude, aren’t you. Calm down before you have a stroke and need medical attention, which your employer probably covers. Unless it’s against their religion to treat stroke victims.

      • David Lumin

        You are damn right I’m bitter. I’m tired of this LAZY entitlement minded generation demanding that I pay for everything. You want free IPhones, free cable, free birth control, and free college.

        I’m tired of MY wallet being invaded by two generations of people who want me to pay for everything for them. Its bad enough, that my taxes goes to pay for those who refuse to get a job, but then to be told, Oh, now you get to pay for women’s birth control, and abortions too.

        As an employer, I owe you an honest days pay, for an honest days work. I don’t owe you anything beyond that.

        I’ve had ONE job where the company, “SPLIT” costs with me on my health insurance. They paid part, and I paid part. There were things that the insurance didn’t cover. Did I whine about it? NO. That is what I agreed too when I was hired.

      • Dude, what kind of terrible places have you been working? I’ve had employer-provided (and the split’s been about 75/25 in their favor) insurance at every full-time job I’ve ever held, even when I was working at Kmart. If I remember correctly (this was *cough*quiteafewyearsago*cough* so don’t hold me strictly to it) I paid about $12 dollars per week for my share of the coverage from my paycheck.

        As an employer, I owe you an honest days pay, for an honest days work. I don’t owe you anything beyond that.

        Well, if you’re going to be that nasty about it, why don’t you bow out of providing insurance for your employees entirely and give them the equivalent amount so they can purchase insurance on the exchanges? I mean, kwitcherbitchen and own it.

      • David Lumin

        If you are an employee who is late all the time, calling off all the time, on your phone all the time at work, or fail in completing your tasks, I’m not going offer you anything more then that.

        Insurance was a PERK given by companies to hire employees in a competitive market. The Unions used collective bargaining to get it in their industries. Now, everyone is demanding that they be paid for their medical care.

        You just proved my point earlier. Entitlement. People think they are entitled to insurance.

        If I pay my employees insurance, it is because i feel they are valuable enough to my company to cover that extra perk.

        If I pay my employees $13 an hour for the job they do, that is because either my competitors are paying $12.50 an hour, and I want to hire employees, or, I feel that the employee has out performed his/her peers and DESERVE that kind of money.

      • If you are an employee who is late all the time, calling off all the
        time, on your phone all the time at work, or fail in completing your
        tasks, I’m not going offer you anything more then that.

        Well, from what I’ve read of your comments, I would think you’d just fire their asses. I wouldn’t have you for a boss if you paid me seven figures a year. Hell, I imagine working for Mickey D’s (or Burger King–I actually had a good boss at Burger King, who treated me like an actual human being) would be better than working for your company, with your rotten attitude.

        Employer-provided insurance was actually started during World War II because of government wage and price controls, but never mind. It is an awkward system, to say the least, but it’s been around for 70 years now, so yeah, people do expect it. Why wouldn’t they? Again, if you’re so dead-set against it, why don’t you advocate for a single-payer system, or Medicare for All? That way, you wouldn’t have to bother your selfish little head over your poor employees’ insurance.

      • David Lumin

        I’m not dead set against giving people insurance. What I’m dead set against is being FORCED to give them insurance, if I have more than 50 employees. What I’m dead set against is the Government telling me I have to cover certain things in that insurance.

        You have fast food workers demanding for $15 an hour, and you have college graduates working in their fields with degrees, making $11 an hour.

        You have people who have degrees in IT making $17-$30 an hour, depending on their job, experience, and people are still wanting more.

        I don’t make over $100k a year. I’m not rich. What I am is a small business owner and I’m tired of being regulated out of business.

        I stopped working for other people and started working for myself. I have business expenses, as well as other expenses.

        Every time I have to increase spending on anything, I have to increase my prices on my customers.

        If I can’t keep my prices lower than my competitors, then EVERY employee I have LOSES. I have to either cut hours or cut workers.
        Which means not only productivity is lost but efficiency.

        Let me put it to you in math.

        My building costs is $20,000 a month (costs for building, and utilities)

        My materials cost is anywhere been $15000-$20000 a month.

        So before labor I’m already at $25000-30000 a month.

        Now if I have 10 employees at $13 an hour and all are full time that is, $29533.33 per month for labor including me.

        Now before I pay any taxes or make any sales, I am in the hole $69533.33 a month.

        Which means I have to make, $401 per hour in sales just to cover expenses. Let’s say I want to maintain a 20% profit. That brings my per hour sales up to $481 per hour to maintain a profit. I’m not always going to get $481 an hour in sales. Sometimes I might get $300 in an hour and others I might get $1000.

        Do the math yourself. Even a $350 a month expense per employee for insurance, means that my overhead costs go up and to maintain a 20% profit margin, my prices (or sales) have to go up.

        So if I plan to remain competitive in the market and keep my prices lower, I have to watch expenses.

      • Okay, I’m not going to argue with any of that. One more time (since you didn’t answer the question): in that case, why don’t you advocate for Medicare for All? We came very near to getting it during the debate over the ACA, and would have if Joe Lieberman hadn’t been such a jackass. It seems to me that would answer your objections in a single stroke: you wouldn’t have to provide employee insurance, you wouldn’t have to worry about what’s in that insurance, and your expenses would be lower. (Well, the payroll taxes might be higher, but the employee would be paying an equal amount; and come to think of it, they probably wouldn’t be THAT much higher, since the risk pool would be so much larger.)

        I stopped working for other people and started working for myself.

        Since we seem to be talking about “personal responsibility,” isn’t that a choice you made? It sounds to me like you’re complaining about the regulations that came with it, when you knew (or should have known) what those regulations were.
        If you want to dance, then you have to pay the piper.

      • David Lumin

        Why don’t I advocate a single payer system or an expanded medicaid system? It is simple, higher taxes. Again it comes down to people paying for OTHER people.

        This country was great because the poorest of the poor could come here and work themselves up out of poverty. Now they can’t. The Welfare system is designed to keep people in the system.

        Now back to personal responsibility on my business. When I went into business, there were a bit less regulations. I didn’t have to sign over my first born to the Government, give a blood sample, a urine sample, a stool sample, and my right arm.

        Now I have 3x the paperwork and 4x the regulations. When I file my taxes, I have to account for every business expense, every penny that I spend, as well as make sure my employees Social Security as well as their taxes are properly paid, so when they file their taxes at the beginning of the next year, they aren’t underpaid.

        I have to have a tax accountant to double check my tax accountant.

        And to make a statement on another post you did. I have no problem with minimum wage. I thought minimum wage should have increased with inflation.

        What I have a problem with is my taxes went up to pay for all of these NEW programs that the Government keeps insisting they need. Both parties did it. Not just one.

      • David Lumin

        Corporations can pay taxes all day long and it not hurt them as bad as it does the small businesses (which are about 90% of your employers). Every time your boss’ taxes goes up, it hurts YOU, the worker. Every time a new regulation comes in, it raises the costs of running a business, which hurts YOU, the worker. Every time the government has some new hair brained idea, taxes go up to cover it, and it hurts the worker.

        I’m not anti-Government. I’m not anti-people. I’m not even anti-women. What I am is anti-dependence. People depend on the Government so much for everything in their lives, that if they tell people a pile of manure is chocolate pie, they would eat it.

        Do I feel sorry for poor children? Absolutely. That is why I take some of the money I make and give it to charities. I have responded on the internet to give food to people who have lost their homes and have loaded up 3-4 bags of groceries, clothes, toys, etc, to take to people who have lost their homes.

        What I take offense to is being forced to do these things.

        Should you have insurance. Absolutely. The question is, who pays for it? If my business is profiting well, and I can afford to buy insurance, I would do it. If it is not, I shouldn’t be forced to take a hit on the profit or raise my prices.

        Either way, insurance is going to cost. Nothing is free in this world, and this new law has made the insurance companies get richer. Sure they had to take a hit on their profit margin, but now, more and more people are going to be signing up and they will make more money hand over fist. Either your employer (if he/she has 50 employees or more) is going to be forced to pay for insurance for you, or the government is going to subsidize it for you. The tax payer (YOU) and businesses are going to pay the costs in higher. So while the the tax payer gets poorer, the insurance companies get richer.

      • So do you advocate ending corporate welfare as well? Seeing as many companies make billions in profits and don’t pay a penny in taxes, and even get refunds from the gov’t.

      • David Lumin

        Absolutely….Corporations don’t NEED tax payer money. They make money hand over fist. They have more cash then they can spend. The Gas/Oil companies don’t need subsidies. They don’t need all the loopholes.

        GE (one of the President’s biggest supporters) gets paid by the Government instead of paying taxes. So absolutely I’m for getting rid of corporate welfare programs.

        Your taxes and my taxes should go to paying for things like roads, bridges, military bases, federal law enforcement, and federal employees. They shouldn’t go to pay for crony capitalism and corporate welfare. The Government should help people get on their feet, but not subsidize a lifestyle.

        The Government should make sure that taxes are fair and that the books are balanced. We shouldn’t have to borrow $.40 of every dollar spent from China in this country.

        You want to bring businesses back to the United States, you make it unprofitable for them to move out of the United States. Any multinational corporation who wants to do business with the United States must have plants/factories here, if not, you charge them an import tax. However, to get businesses back here, they have to have a reason to come back. Lower taxes, fewer regulations.

        Gas prices are too high. Food prices are too high. Housing costs are through the roof. Why? Too much regulation in one area and too lax regulation in another.

        You have to cut the size of government programs somewhere. Take care of our own first. Quit sending billions to 3rd world countries. Once we feed our own, we can feed the world.

        Teach children that education is important. Bring back sex education in schools. That nasty STD movie we had to watch for sex education was enough to make me not want sex as a teen.

        I understand people’s feelings. I understand they want insurance. I just don’t like being forced to pay for it. I don’t like my taxes going up to pay for it.

        Its a catch 22. We have people who are out of work, because people aren’t buying. And people who aren’t buying, because they are out of work.

      • (oh, phooey. Curse this site’s idiotic restrictions on links everybody else in the frakking world uses. Apologies if you see this twice.)

        So do you realize most of the things you mentioned are absolute non-starters in the Republican-controlled House of Representatives? Remember the President’s American Jobs Act? That was for infrastructure projects, and it was paid for by closing loopholes (I think the oil company subsidy was one of them, but I’m not 100% certain).

        It didn’t even get a vote. John Boehner refused to bring it to the floor.

        Republicans also refuse to consider raising the minimum wage, even to the amount it would have been when adjusted for inflation.

        http://www.nytimes DOT com/2014/06/20/upshot/raise-minimum-wage-past-10-been-here-before.html?_r=0

      • David Lumin

        I’m not Republican, nor am I a Democrat. Both parties are corrupt. Both parties have corporate donors. As long as people keep voting for the same people year after year, its not going to change. Right now both houses of Congress are playing the block game. The House blocks the Senate and the Senate blocks the House. Its all about 2014/2016. Both want to take control of the other house. Nothing is going to get done until one party has control of both houses, and either way, its going to change the face of American politics. If the Democrats get control, more and more programs are going to be passed and 12 million illegal immigrants are going to be given amnesty without the border being closed. If the Republicans win control, more and more programs are going to get cut, the border will be secured and no amnesty will be given.

        Until we get control of the parties again. No one is going to do anything but what the Unions and Corporations are telling them to do.

        I’m tired of my representative being bought and paid for by Corporations, Unions, and special interest groups. I’m tired of them telling ME what they are going to do and not listening to my input.

        I am old school in many ways. I believe that men shouldn’t be making babies that they don’t want or can afford. I believe he should be out there working and taking care of his family. I believe in personal liberty and freedoms. I believe that the Government shouldn’t fix everything and that we ourselves need to fix certain things.

        Democrats and Republicans, while their ideologies are different, their methods are the same.

      • Gini Denninger

        Agreed again!

      • Gini Denninger

        Now what you just said I agree with you totally. I have been saying the sane myself. Too much favoritism for big business and fat cat CEO’s

      • Dude, I’m beginning to think you’re deliberately misreading me. I said MEDICARE for all, not MEDICAID. Those are two completely different things.

        It is simple, higher taxes. Again it comes down to people paying for OTHER people.

        Well yes, that’s how civilization works. That’s the price we pay, and always has been. That’s how ANY form of insurance works. I, who have never been in an accident or had a file a claim on my house, am paying for all those other people who are using their house and/or car insurance. Just as they’ll pay for me if and when the time comes.

        I have a high-deductible insurance plan right now, because I’m disgustingly healthy; but if I weren’t, I would choose a regular Blue Cross/Blue Shield type. Do I get those premiums back the months I don’t use them? No I don’t, because they go into the pool to pay for other people. But if I were to get cancer or have a heart attack, I’d be drawing FAR more out of the pool than I paid into it. That’s just how insurance works.

        Unless you’d rather I do without it and die? Just get out of the way so you can fatten your wallet. Maybe that’s not what you intended, but it certainly sounds like that’s what you’re saying.

        If you want to opt out of civilization, you really need to (a) move to the Alaskan wilderness and support yourself completely, up to and including growing your own food and cultivating your own herbal medicines (and good luck with that for treating cancer, or even the results of a grizzly attack); or (b) buying your own island and doing the same. Otherwise, in EVERY CIVILIZED COUNTRY ON THE FUCKING PLANET, you have to pay taxes, and you have to pay for stuff for other people. Just like other people have to pay for stuff for you.

        Sheesh. Grow up and get over it.

      • Gini Denninger

        Dave, I agree employers should get out of the healthcare business all together. I believe we need a single payer system like Germany, Canada, Costa Rica, and many other civilized countries offer. I would hope you agree! When you add up all taxes including hidden ones, our taxes are as high as in those countries ( that is if you don’t own your own business with all the tax write-offs). You the business owner, should not be responsible for paying for healthcare. Healthcare should be available across the board. That way employees are not afraid to take a walk from nasty bosses and seek employment elsewhere, without worry about whether they will be able to get healthcare.

      • Gini Denninger

        Dave, So why are you not equally angry about paying for Viagra and other men’s male health issues????

      • BilbySA

        And you still miss the point. I think you would scream bloody murder if a Muslim small business owner insisted that his religious beliefs must be observed and respected by his workers. It’s the utter hypocrisy which makes this case so detestable.

        Btw, you’re absolutely wrong in your assertion that anybody working for you must do whatever you want. If YOU want to run a business in a democracy, then there are rules, laws and standards you must adhere to. Don’t like them? Then move to China!

      • Charles Vincent

        few things here :
        1) we are a constitutional republic not a democracy

        2)Hobby lobby isn’t enforcing religious beliefs on its workers its refusing to provide 4 out of 20 forms of contraception, not that they have to observe prayer sessions or attend church regularly etcetera.

        3) “Btw, you’re absolutely wrong in your assertion that anybody working for you must do whatever you want.”

        Wrong when you agree to accept the job it creates the contract between you and the employer and you are bound by the rules and regulations of their company. This is basic contract law.,

      • cattnipp

        EXCEPT the Supreme court came back and said they did not rule on those 4 items….. they ruled on all 20 some birth control items (for women) on the mandate——– and again said it is legal because WOMEN have no ‘constitutional protections’ against discrimination.
        ……… seriously, this is what they said

      • David Lumin

        I don’t know who gave you that information, but I read the opinion and it said nothing about no Constitutional protection against discrimination of women.

        Pp. 35­-38.
        (c) The Court assumes that the interest in guaranteeing cost-free access to the four challenged contraceptive methods is a compelling governmental interest, but the Government has failed to show that
        the contraceptive mandate is the least restrictive means of furthering that interest. Pp. 38­-49.
        (1) The Court assumes that the interest in guaranteeing cost-free access to the four challenged contraceptive methods is compelling within the meaning of RFRA. Pp. 39­-40.

        It also ONLY talks about the “4”. You might want to check your sources.

      • David Lumin

        Ginsberg was the one who even mentions discrimination in her dissent.

      • cattnipp

        they only allow a very limited number of links to be posted—– I an tired of people who refuse to use a search engine themselves and also claim they do not feel the links are ‘good enough’———- take a class and learn how to use a search engine— I have provided enough keywords that you can find the information easily.

      • David Lumin

        I read the decision. What you read was someone’s opinion. Opinion is NOT, I repeat, NOT LAW. The fact is NOT paying for someone’s birth control is not denying them birth control. Not paying for birth control is NOT discrimination. Discrimination would be telling you, that you can’t buy birth control. Discrimination would be telling you, you can’t have an abortion. The courts said neither. What the courts said was it was that the regulations passed by HHS did not follow federal law and that they could not force HL to pay for the 4 in question. And the internet isn’t always the best place to find information. Especially political websites. I got my information from the government website.

      • cattnipp

        have you bothered to read any of the updates or clarifications released by the SCOTUS ???

      • Gini Denninger

        I Actually did listen to the Supreme Court ruling, suggest you do the same…after all the SC granted an injunction allowing Wheaton College to not provide certain coverage either… Due to religious beliefs. Since when is a Christian college a closely held corporation??? Already the slippery slope starts. You Sir, may be se-employed, as I, but sadly our similarity ends there. You Sir, have applauded the opened door, by our SC, to a future of employers attempting to skirt the law by claiming religious exemptions. If you don’t like the law change it, don’t hide behind erroneous SC rulings. You are, due to your desire to not be told what basic health care must offer – if your company offers actual healthcare, are willing to give up laws that protect many of our society against those that would discriminate against them (women, gays, blacks, the list goes on-but I will not,) using the guise of religious belief. Shame on you for being that selfish!

      • Kate

        We already cater to every whim of the muslim religion. Look at GITMO, for Pete’s sake. The Country is so afraid of saying no to Muslims, but not to Christians or Jews. Hmm. I’m FOR freedom of all religions. Are you saying you are not?

      • blueturtles

        So when your friends start complaining that they aren’t allowed to eat from 8 am when they get to work until 6 pm after they leave during the entire month of Ramadan, you know which Supreme Court justices to blame – the ones who decided that an employer can force his religious will on his underlings.

      • Blueturtlesisbeingdramatic

        The employer is not forcing them to sing hymns, read scripture before every shift, pray during lunch breaks and celebrate Easter for Christ sake…HA I made a joke.

      • blueturtles

        Right. Not yet. This was just the first real step in that direction.

        Did you actually think I confused this ruling with an employer forcing an employee to pray? Why would you think that? Read my words, dude. smh

      • sassyladyfl

        @Kate. Do I mis understand you..gotmo is…a private holiday resort for muslims???

      • AQ

        She’s saying that because she doesn’t think those filthy mutts aren’t getting tortured enough. Clearly, because they’re black and brown and speak a funny language and follow a belief system that she knows dick-all about, they need to suffer cruel and unusual punishments round the clock.
        (for the stupid err Teadiots: that was sarcasm)

      • Semischolar

        Wait… what? You think Gitmo is an example of the US “catering to every whim of the muslim religion”??? Really?

      • blueturtles

        Your religion also tells you that if someone rapes your daughter, then hands you 50 silver pieces, you need to give your daughter to him as his new wife.

        And that if you want a sex slave, all you have to do is kill her family and take her. Just call it war.

        It’s really sick that you think you can impose your religion on your employees.

      • FisherofTruth

        Christians do not have to follow the guidelines of the old testament. Jesus taught what was important from the old testament – like the 10 commandments. non-religious people make crazy arguments based on a poor understanding of the religion they are trying to slander.

      • Ken Horowitz

        Then why is the old testament in the Bible? If Christians have to follow it, why is it included so completely? Why do so many Christian fundamentalists quote it chapter and verse to make their arguments? You can’t have it both ways.

      • FisherofTruth

        @Ken – because it still has valuable life lessons. you can choose to follow Jewish lifestyle/health guidelines as Jesus did but you do not have to. This was an issue among the disciples. whether Jesus came just as king of the Jews or did he come with a message for all people. he came with a message for all people and they decided people did not have to follow Jewish law. I think maybe 10years ago, the History channel did a show where this topic was covered and several biblical scholars discussed the issue. it was very informative.

      • Ken Horowitz

        That still doesn’t explain why so many fundamentalists quote it chapter and verse. They sure don’t act like they’re merely talking about guidelines that don’t have to be followed. That’s the problem with people interpreting the Bible. Everyone has different interpretations. If it truly is the word of God, then there should be NO interpretation at all, and every Christian should understand exactly the same thing.

      • blueturtles

        But those “guidelines” are sure useful when condemning homosexuality, aren’t they? It’s ridiculous.

        And the God represented there was pretty horrific. Anyone who promotes slavery and murder of children – or what God supposedly did to Job (killing his children in order to prove how powerful he was? LOLLLL – that was a story fit for an 9 yo’s imagination, truly) could not be the creator of this universe.

      • FisherofTruth

        people love putting there own limits on what God could be or couldn’t be. but they are limited by puny minds and can not know the mind of God.

      • LL11

        ” non-religious people make crazy arguments based on a poor understanding of the religion they are trying to slander”…. you have to be kidding!!

        Right wing Christians quote the old testament in support of their beliefs all the time. Yes, I am a Christian, and I have read the Bible cover to cover many times. I know the crazy old laws (stone your child for non-respect for example), but many of the so-called Christians in the media, including, IMO, the hobby lobby owners, use their interpretation of a few verses from the old testament to justify their stance.

        Tell me, which verses support your stance on abortion?

      • AQ

        Is that why you Christians love to quote all the parts of the OT that call for the death of gays? Wow, never knew.

      • Because Christians are quick to flip out Levitican Law when it suits them? Yeah, you believe the Bible, or you don’t. What’s it going to be? Do you really expect people to take any of you religious nuts seriously when you cherry pick what you want to believe? Especially when it changes to suit you at any given time?

      • FisherofTruth

        that is a very small percentage who get a lot of air time on msnbc whose business it is to paint religion/Christians/Conservatives/tea-Partiers with a negative brush because it enforces their own narrative.

      • Kate

        Another person heard from who hasn’t read the Bible. You has ‘heard’ of something that wasn’t God’s laws, in the OT and thinks they’re smart and wise enough to comment on that. Read up, please.

      • blueturtles

        Kate, I’ve actually read the entire Bible from start to finish. I was a devout Christian, in fact, until I got through Deuteronomy one weekend and realized there was no way I could worship a “God” who called for the rape and enslavement of virgin girls – and the murder of their baby brothers.

        My guess is that your reading of the Bible is limited to the choice passages recommended by your pastor and that you have never actually read it cover to cover.

      • FisherofTruth

        oh well then, i guess a weekend is enough time to fully grasp deuteronomy and become an expert. it is inexcusable that anyone dare question you, your expertness.

      • LL11

        You accuse someone else of being condescending above but your responses are, Kate. I have read the Bible, like blueturtles. Please address his comment about the story of Job.

        So, God and Satan made a bet about Job, who “was perfect and upright, and one that feared God”. Satan said he only worshiped God because of all he had. “And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So a wind came and destroyed the house where his 10 children were, and the Sabeans came and took his oxen and donkeys, and the “fire of God fell from heaven” and burned up the sheep and the Chaldeans came and stole the camels.

        So tell us, what does this mean to you?

      • AQ

        Kate, some of us HAVE read the Bible–and that is why we are no longer Christians.

      • David Lumin

        That was old jewish law. Not Christian law. I think if a man rapes a woman, he should be castrated and put in prison.

      • blueturtles

        Same God. Basically, you are saying you believe your God was completely and totally wrong.

        Either way – your old religions have no business being imposed on other people. God himself killed plenty of babies according to your Bible, and plenty of fetuses, too, when he called for the murders of their mothers.

        And if you dismiss part of the Old Testament as “old law” then I hope you dismiss it all. I find it amazing how often Christians quote the old testament when it comes to condemning homosexuality and other things.

      • David Lumin

        First of all Jesus said when he died the old law was fulfilled. I also know of people who still holler the old law of an eye for an eye and they aren’t even Christians. I also know people who use the bible to condemn interracial marriage (and many of them are NOT religious) I don’t condemn homosexuality. I support that gay marriage is constitutional and protected by the Constitution (under the 14th amendment) as well as the SC decision in Virginia v Loving.

        The question is whether or not the government can violate someone’s beliefs. Under the 1st Amendment, and under RFRA, what the SCOTUS said, was that the HHS regulations did NOT follow the law and that HL did not have to provide the “4” medications/devices in question as it violated their beliefs and the Government had other options to make sure that women who wanted those 4 could get them. The Constitution is a limit on what the Government can do. The laws are a limit on what PEOPLE and Government can do, and if the law violates another federal law or the Constitution, it can be challenged in court and overturned with a simple majority or a super majority.

        There have been many land mark cases where the SCOTUS has ruled against people of faith and many land mark cases that they have ruled for people of faith.

        This is one where they ruled for people of faith.

        The RFRA law was brought about because of a State Law that violated an American Indian religious rights who used peyote in his spiritual ritual. The SCOTUS ruled against him. The RFRA was passed to over ride that decision. It passed the House unanimously and the Senate 97-3, and was signed into law by Bill Clinton.

        While the 1st Amendment does have the Establishment Clause stating that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, it also says it can’t prohibit the free exercise of it.

        This is about using laws to violate people’s conscience. Abortion while settled law, is not widely accepted. Some view abortion as a double standard in the law.

        Even I, who support women’s rights, do not believe abortion should be an on demand procedure, but that is my belief, and that is not what the law says. I accept that part of the law. What I don’t accept is being forced to pay for it out of my pocket.

        Some one asked me about Viagra. I don’t think I should be paying for Viagra either. That is a personal and private bedroom decision. I am not involved in that decision, and since I’m not involved, I don’t feel I should be forced to PAY for it.

      • blueturtles

        They didn’t rule for the individual woman’s faith. There may very well be women whose own personal faith and belief dictate that they should NOT carry the baby of a rapist. Yet they may not be able to afford Plan B if they work retail, after a rape.

        30,000 women a year are impregnated through rape in the US. All of these women won’t have access to $40 within the 3 day timeframe needed to prevent conception with Plan B.

        Other women may feel compelled by faith to NOT remove their reproductive organs – but to be ready to bear a child in the future. A woman with severe menorrhagia may need mirena to prevent the need for hysterectomy. Where is her faith then?

        Mirena is one of the contraceptives banned. I know women who were advised to get Mirena in order to prevent hysterectomy. Hysterectomy not only shortens a woman’s life, but can just degrade her health overall. Mirena is a much better option for many women.

        This is just one more instance of the individual being trashed for the “rights” of a corporation, and women being trashed for the “rights” of religion.

      • cattnipp

        except they can………. Burger King just paid a 25k lawsuit to a 17 years old who applied for a job, had the dress code explained to her and signed and agreement to follow the uniform dress code—– then within her first 5 PAID minutes explained that she was Christian and it was against her religion to wear their uniform…. she was told she would be paid for her shift but no longer had a job and to leave—– she sued because they discriminated against her for being a Christian

      • David Lumin

        At Chik-fil-a, you can’t smoke while in uniform, they will fire you. At the job I worked at, no one could wear any jewelry because it might get caught in the machines, and that included The Cross and the Star of David.

      • cattnipp

        well……. that was blatant discrimination……… Christians and Jews have as much right as anyone else to seek a Darwin Award by killing themselves off………… actually preventing a worker from killing themselves by tearing off their own heads using symbols of their religion???? ——- I hope the suicidally religious workers sues for their rights

      • cattnipp

        as a business owner do you have the RIGHT to choose what is done with the compensation given for their labor??? NO—– the fact that HL does not want to offer insurance that meet the bare legal minimum is just too darn bad………. the law for the insurance company is that all normal and customary things be covered—- so HL can change the law for insurance companies?? are you next going to say that Ford should be forced to provide cars with no brakes because some church does not believe in them.

      • David Lumin

        As long as I pay you minimum wage, that is all the compensation I am required to give you. HHS made the regulation. The regulation was unconstitutional. It didn’t follow federal law or the Constitution. That is why it got struck down. As a business owner of less than 50 employees, I’m not required to offer ANY insurance, As long as I pay my employees $7.25 an hour or more, I don’t have to give anyone anything. Now, do I pay more than $7.25, Yes. Do I offer vacations? Yes. Will I pay for birth control pills? No. Will I pay for Plan B or Ella? No. Is it because of my religious views? NO! I won’t pay them because, I’m not responsible for your bedroom activities or personal choices in your life. I am not required by law, because I am a business owner with less than 50 employees, to cover any of your medical expenses. And since I’m not responsible for your personal choices or bedroom activities, I will not compensate you by paying for them.

        And to answer your ridiculous question about Ford, guess what, The Supreme Court said “Closely Held” corporations, which means companies that are owned by 5 or less people.

      • cattnipp

        no…… ‘closely held’ means that 51% or more of the stock or ownership is owned by 5 or fewer people……….. so ‘closely held’ applies to about 80% of the corporations in the USA ——- There is no MANDATE that employers pay for employee health Insurance, not even a mandate that they broker access ……. there are special tax breaks for the companies that CHOOSE to broker access and those who CHOOSE to cover the cost……………. There is NO MANDATE that corporations pay for any birth control…. ever. There is however a law that applies to insurance companies….. the ACA makes it mandatory for insurance to cover all common and customary health care issues. ALL common and customary…………… that includes vaccines, prostate exams, breast exams, birth control, maternity care, ALL of them.
        THE ISSUE here is that Hobby Lobby has insisted that they have the right to demand the insurance company construct a plan that is not allowed to cover what the insurance company is bound by law to cover—————— Hobby Lobby claims they have the RIGHT to the tax breaks ……. but that it wants the insurance company to not cover what is required by law……..
        The Supreme Court has come back and said that they rule owners may protect the immortal soul of their corporations by denying WOMEN birth control and women health coverage………. AND that it is legal to do so under the constitution because WOMEN have no protections under the constitution………. the constitution states all MEN are created equally but fails to mention women.— seriously, that is the claim

      • David Lumin

        You are right. When the Constitution was written, women were considered like slaves, property, and the children belonged to their father.

        That rubbish went out the window long ago. That is why women got the right to vote in 1919 with the passage of the 19th Amendment to the United States.

        Then in 1964, with the passage of the Civil Rights Act, it definitely mentions women as a protected class.

        You have the right to birth control. I agree. You have the right to have an abortion. What you don’t have the right to do is demand that “I” or any other employer pay for it. I also don’t support being forced to pay for Viagra either. I don’t support law forcing me to pay for anything that doesn’t involve me.

        Abortion, Birth Control, Viagra, are all personal choices made by the individuals or their doctors.

        Hobby Lobby BEFORE the ACA offered 16 of the FDA approved birth control methods/medications. They took offense to being forced to offer those they didn’t want to pay for.

        The ACA is eventually going to be changed anyway. Overwhelmingly, the voters want the law to either be changed or repealed. Most want it gutted and re-written. There are about 29% that want it completely repealed. So all of this arguing is pointless. Eventually the ACA is going to be re-written.

      • cattnipp

        do you object to paying for vaccines because that is a ‘choice’? how about the repair of a facial birth defect??—————– but mostly do you think that the employer pays for each heart pill and laxative and prostate exam separately?? do you think it should all be a la’ carte so we can pay 3x as much??————– the product being purchased is called Health Care Insurance…… you need to try to understand that

      • ghhshirley

        Your belief stops where MY body begins.

      • David Lumin

        Your body stops where my wallet begins. You have the right to get birth control and abortion. You don’t have the right to demand that “I” or any employer pay for it.

      • Guest

        Can I force a Jewish or Muslim meat processor to butcher and package a hog against their religion?

  • eddij1

    George has valid points but his gay rights agenda has me wondering? Would he rather live in a country that is comprised of Christians trying to advocate their beliefs or a Muslim country advocating their’s.

    • Danielle

      This isn’t an either/or. How about living in a country that doesn’t impose any one religion’s beliefs on it’s citizens.

    • nitemayr

      Well, in “Christian Countries” in the past (I won’t name any, but try to guess)

      Gays were:
      Pierced on Poles via their rectum
      Forced into special camps where people could keep tabs on them
      Put to death in said camps
      Burned in groups
      Hounded by groups of wildiing teens and adults for entertainment under the guise of hunting Paedophiles
      Shot by the “Local Security Forces”
      Milled into fields

      So yeah, Christian Countries haven’t shown a good track record either; but in some of the more religious countries they have designated Atheism as a terrorist act punishable by imprisonment or death.

      Can you understand why some people might not look upon Religious rule as a good thing (Remember the last time the west had a Divine Leader as set forth by God, it was a KING)

    • Gini Denninger

      Please stay on topic

  • eddij1

    I can’t say anything on this sight because it’s censorship

    • nitemayr

      “Site” “sight” refers to seeing, a “site” is a place, like a “web site”

  • eddij1

    George has valid points but would he rather live in a society that allowed Christians to invoke their beliefs on a society or allow Muslims to enforce their’s on what ever society they conquer.

  • Veritas vos Liberabit

    Hobby Lobby and Dominionism theology. Infringement of the first Amendment with the help of the Conservative SCOTUS.

  • Sarah Hinton

    Too bad the SCOTUS at least five of them are brain dead and heartless. I bet if it was President Romney or McCain the decision would have been different.

  • Allison

    Seriously? Most of you are making this to be solely religious and about imposing views. That is what liberals make you think but it is not accurate. Yes Hobby Lobby is Christian but their objection is a moral one. There are non-Christians who object to abortion as well.

    Number one. A woman has a choice whether or not to work at hobby lobby.
    If I disagree with porn or with strip clubs, the solution is not to sue or become angry because their morals are different than mine. I DO NOT go work there!

    Number two . What is being lost in all this is they are completely providing birth control pills! There are only a few they refuse to pay for which are the ones that are known to actually abort a baby! Every OB will tell you that the things hobby lobby are prohibiting kill the embryo because it does not allow it to implant.

    • AnimalLover2

      WRONG Allison. One in four of the devices might cause an unfertilized egg not to attach itself. That is not an abortion. The icing on the cake is they hold investments in the companies that make these four devices; so its A-OK as long as it makes them a buck.

      • Allison

        Sorry. Incorrect. ALL IUDs are abortifacents. The copper IUD without question. Even the hormonal IUD – works to decrease chance of ovulation BUT if ovulation occurs which it does even with IUD, embryo is aborted due to IUD. Ella – similar to RU 486, the abortion drug- and the meowing after pills — yes, works to decrease risk of ovulation BUT when ovulation and then fertilization occur, which they DO on these drugs, “back up” plan for these drugs is to abort the embryo. Why do you think ACOG and Fed Government/FDA have changes the definition of when conception occurs? They say it is at implantation rather than at fertilization to be able to say thaw drugs are not abortifacents but this is so deceiving! I know the physiology/pharmacology with these drugs. Even though their primary method of contraception is to decrease ovulation, they all have the potential to be abortifacents.

        Should say morning after pills above – not “meowing”!

      • Alise

        You do realize that half of all fertilized eggs naturally fail to implant right? Or that a further 30% of all pregnancies end in a first trimester miscarriage? There is no way to tell why the pregnancy ended- or to differentiate between an induced abortion and a miscarriage. THAT is why the laws are the way they are.

      • Allison

        Yes, accidents happen. People die by chance in life. A miscarriage is an unfortunate accident – a life is lost by chance. With the abortifacents you are intentionally taking a person’s life. If I ride in a car there is a chance I may die in a car crash – accidents happen. If I intentionally cut the brakes on a person’s car – or worse like strap a bomb to the car to make sure the persons dies – I am doing something intentionally to take a life. This is analogous. Miscarriages are accidents and unintended. Taking abortifacents is acting with the intention of killing.

      • Alise

        The difference is that you can generally tell when a car crash is intentional. Unless you go to a clinic and physically have the fetal material removed, there is no way to tell whether an early pregnancy loss was aborted or miscarried. Let’s say that the law was changed to rule that life begins at fertilization and all forms of abortion or potentially abortifacient forms of birth control were criminalized. What’s going to happen is that any woman who experiences a pregnancy loss is going to have to prove in a court of law that the pregnancy loss was not a result of her actions- and taxpayer money is going to be spent on filing death certificates and subsequent investigation of unknown causes. The result of this is going to be a number of doctors refusing to see patients in their first trimester, causing a delay in critical prenatal care and contributing to the rise of neural tube defects and other associated problems.

      • Allison

        In the USA it is a crime if one intends to kill a person even if their attempt was unsuccessful. INTENT to kill matters!

        Next point is that in the USA there is a law protecting violence against the unborn. The law says that a child in utero – carried in the mother’s womb – is member of the species Homo sapiens – a human person. It does not say implantation. So if one intentionally kills a pregnant women it is murder of TWO lives!

        Interesting how the law then makes an exception for a mother saying this law does not apply to a mother who aborts her child in utero. A mom is allowed to kill her child – a human person!
        This is insane.
        So using an abortifacent mom per the law will get away with murder.
        BUT people and private companies who find this appalling should not have to provide means for a mother to abort her child if they are morally against this act of taking a human life!

      • Alise

        Establishing intent is difficult to begin with- you often have only the woman’s word in regards to her intent. I will give two examples- Nancy and Susan. For the purposes of this exercise, we will say that both ladies are married women in their mid-thirties. Nancy has been told for years that she is unable to bear children. Unbeknownst to her, she has unexpectedly fallen pregnant. She consumes several alcoholic beverages at a birthday party and subsequently suffers a pregnancy loss. She had no intent to kill her child, yet her actions likely contributed to his or her death. Susan on the other hand, has just received a promotion at the office when her monthly fails to appear on schedule. She suspects she is with child, so she brews up a batch of pennyroyal tea (an herbal abortifacient) and drinks it. Her monthly makes an appearance a few days later. Her intent was to kill her child- but there is no way to prove that in a court of law.

      • Allison

        ?
        The first woman had NO clue she was pregnant and had no intention of drinking the alcohol in order to harm/kill the child.
        The second woman had a suspicion she was pregnant and INTENTIONALLY drank a known abortifacent with the INTENT to kill the child if she actually did happen to be pregnant.
        How is there doubt about establishing intent in these two cases?

      • Well, there’s the little fact that if the woman is smart (and she must be if she’s messing with pennyroyal–that stuff is just as likely to kill you as it is to abort a pregnancy), she’d obviously never say anything about it. No confession = no proof. I don’t mean to be snarky, but duh.

        (It never ceases to amaze me why ANYBODY would, for instance, agree to a search of their vehicle for any reason, just because they’re pulled over for a traffic stop. KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT AROUND POLICE, people, and say no to anything they request.)

      • Alise

        In the first case, it can be argued that “Nancy” was of childbearing age and sexually active, thus she knew that becoming pregnant was a possibility and should not have done anything to potentially jeopardize a pregnancy. It falls under the realm of child endangerment laws- generally it’s applied when a baby is born with alcohol or drugs in its’ system or with fetal alcohol syndrome. In the second case, “Susan” never actually knew for certain that she was pregnant- and at any rate, without extensive testing of a fetal tissue sample, there’s only an allegation that she aborted her child. It cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law for the simple reason that it cannot be proven in a court of law that she was ever actually pregnant to begin with. See, in order to convict someone of a crime, you have to PROVE beyond reasonable doubt that the person is guilty. For that, you have to have a body and you have to prove a cause of death- which is virtually impossible with an early term fetus.

      • Alise

        Because you can’t prove it beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. The second case cannot be proven because there was never confirmation she was actually pregnant- and without a physical proof such as fetal tissue or a positive in office pregnancy test, everything is speculation.

    • nitemayr

      However in this case it is entirely about Religious beliefs; they couched it in the religious exception. Check it out, there have already been groups using this to allow them to discriminate against gays in hiring… it’s not a slippery slope, it’s a cliff.

  • shovelhead77

    Your boss should not have a say over your healthcare.” – George Takei

    I believe that wholeheartedly. Just like your boss should have no say over what you eat, or what car you drive. Your boss has no say in those things, because he doesn’t foot the bill. You exchange your service to him for money, you take that money and buy whatever your heart desires. How about this, your boss gives you the money that he would have spent on your health care, and you go out and buy it yourself, just like everything else that you need and want.

    • blueturtles

      That would work, if healthcare plans didn’t hit the individual. It’s a group-buy benefit. Much cheaper for 1,000 people in a company to have a healthcare plan than 1,000 individuals by themselves.

      • shovelhead77

        That’s true. A person would also get a discount if their company bought vehicles in a fleet and gave him a car as part of his pay, but then he would have to take the kind of car that his boss buys for him. Maybe the boss believes that small electric cars are best for the planet, so he buys a bunch of two seater electric commuter cars. Some of his employees have large families, and that car isn’t practical for them. The boss won’t budge, because he already negotiated a deal for a specific kind of car, and doesn’t like carbon footprint of an SUV. What do you do? You can ask your boss for the money that he would have spent on your car, and buy your own SUV with some money out of your pocket added in, or you find an employer that offers SUVs as part of their compensation package.

      • blueturtles

        We’re not talking about a car.

        We’re talking about pregnancy in a nation where pregnancy is 18th in the world for killing women.

        If you can compare driving a company car with being denied access to Plan B after being raped, then you must be a man. No woman would give those two ideas anywhere near the same importance.

      • shovelhead77

        So the only place to get Plan B is from an employer? Isn’t it OTC? You don’t even need a doctor to get it.

      • blueturtles

        For a woman earning $14 an hour at Hobby Lobby, she might not have the $40 needed for Plan B. Plan B isn’t something you PLAN on using. And not everyone making $14 an hour can stay on top of their bills. We’re talking maybe $1800 a month after taxes. If she pays $800 a month for rent (and in many places this won’t get much), $250 for car payment & car insurance, $250 for utilities, $100 for cell phone & internet, she’s got $400 left for all her food, clothing, and possibly daycare for a baby.

        Plan B needs to be covered.

        Again – a woman working retail would understand this. That is why this needs to be HER decision – and not yours, when you don’t seem capable of comprehending the various situations women might find themselves in when they need this option.

      • shovelhead77

        How many times a year would you think the average woman would need Plan B? Two? Three? How about Hobby Lobby gives everyone a $100 raise per year. They can spend the money on Plan B, booze and blackjack, or the new puppy and kitten calendar.

      • blueturtles

        Because you know, as well as I do, that every woman isn’t going to save that money “in case she gets raped”. Your solutions are not solutions, and I believe even you are intelligent enough to see that.

      • shovelhead77

        How about this? Hobby Lobby offers catastrophic health care, along with a medical savings account that can be used for routine medical expenses. Like a visit to your family doc, or Plan B, or whatever medical expenses you want?

      • blueturtles

        However, that’s not on the table.

        If you are recommending changes to Obamacare, then that’s actually a separate issue.

        Personally, I think we should do away with the insurance companies, offer a single-payer solution like better run countries have, and offer free birth control to anyone who wants it.

      • blueturtles

        And please show me where Hobby Lobby has offered to give everyone extra money to cover the birth control choices they don’t currently cover?

        They haven’t offered that. Why don’t you just suggest money fall from rainbows and unicorns bring it to everyone’s doors?

        They aren’t offering that. It’s not on the table.

      • shovelhead77

        I’m just proposing hypothetical alternatives. How about we force the drug companies that make birth control pills and IUD manufacturers to produce their products for free, and force the doctors to administer those products for free? That way Hobby Lobby doesn’t have to compromise their beliefs.

      • Gini Denninger

        Shovelhead…how about this, we have single payer system like every other CIVILIZED, educated country in the world and all this back & forth ends!!!

      • shovelhead77

        Single payer rocks the VA.

      • shovelhead77

        “That would work, if healthcare plans didn’t hit the individual. It’s a group-buy benefit. Much cheaper for 1,000 people in a company to have a healthcare plan than 1,000 individuals by themselves.”

        We have Obamacare now. Obamacare puts millions of people together in state and federal pools to bring high quality, affordable heath insurance to everyone. If you don’t like your employer’s plan, you should be able to the money that your employer set aside for health insurance, and buy a high quality, affordable plan under Obamacare on your own.

      • blueturtles

        If your employer provides insurance, you can’t get Obamacare.

        The way it currently stands, Hobby Lobby employees who are raped must have the $40 or $50 in their pockets to get Plan B. Hobby Lobby employees with severe menorrhagia must settle for a much more dangerous and potentially life-shortening hysterectomy or also more dangerous and potentially life-shortening birth control pills rather than using Mirena which is often a better choice than the others OR come up with hundreds of dollars to pay out-of-pocket for it.

        For Hobby Lobby employees, this may be impossible since they aren’t paid all that well.

      • shovelhead77

        It’s a simple thing to remove the restriction on being able to buy Obamacare even if your company has a company plan, and that’s a problem brought on by government, not Hobby Lobby. The alternative is that Hobby Lobby can give all their employees a small raise, maybe $400 a year to cover any contraceptive costs not covered by their health plan or anything else they want to spend it on. That’s 10 Plan B pills a year, or they can spend it on a trip to Vegas, or food.

        I went on the Planned Parenthood site, and they will dispense birth control on a sliding scale. The poorer that you are, the less you pay, down to zero I suspect.

      • blueturtles

        However, Republicans are busy pushing Planned Parenthood out. They are working on removing financing for Planned Parenthood, which IS affecting poor women, and keeping some from getting the breast cancer screenings they need.

        There is no Planned Parenthood anywhere near where I live. So in actuality, a poor employee of Hobby Lobby may have trouble getting Plan B after a rape. And may in fact end up needing to make the decision later of a slightly more dangerous abortion or a very much more dangerous pregnancy/childbirth.

        All this because of the hypocritical religious beliefs of her employer (who has also already invested money into the MAKERS of Plan B! and who makes money off the workers of a country where the citizens are often FORCED to have abortions!)

    • FisherofTruth

      then you should go buy your own healthcare and your boss shouldn’t be involved. when an employer has to foot the bill for an insurance plan, they should should have a say in the matter.

      • Gini Denninger

        Then all employers should pay living wage that allows worker to AFFORD to pay for their own insurance! Duh!

  • Francine Anoia Price

    WELL said George! How come you never hear religious BS out of Canada or France or Great Britain?

    • Kate

      France, I can speak to. 90% non-Christian. Don’t care what God thinks or says, so do as they please.

      • Jillz

        Canada, I can speak to. It’s because religion is personal, and does not come into play in government or business (unless the business is a church related not-for profit). I am very grateful for my true freedom of, or from religion and to live in a country where a corporation, acknowledged as a ‘person’ with religious ‘rights’, does not exist.

      • Catherine Bensinger Graves

        In this country, Kate we are Constitutionally protected to do anything lawful that we please, too. Keep your Christianity out of my LIBERTY. I have the right not to have it shoved down my throat. You are mistaken in thinking it is your right to do so, and sit in judgement.

      • Kate

        Um that’s comical. “shoved down my throat”? I simply don’t think you, or our government, has the right to shove having to pay for those four forms of BC. The HL company did not pay for them *before* the ACA was shoved down everyone’s throat. NOW, they are forced to meet the same coverage *as* the ACA (don’t suppose you read in the decision that their plan met, if not exceeded, the ACA, as one of the judges mentioned). Before, they let the employee buy them, but would not pay for them. Period.

  • blueturtles

    This is just one more reason we need to eliminate the insurance middleman and institute a single-payer option like they have in better run countries.

  • RandomDude

    That’s why they left the decision shaky, indicating they might not rule along those lines on other cases–it was an activist decision like Bush v Gore. SCOTUS is a huge right wing joke on America. Ninety-five percent of the time, if you understand the politics of a case you can accurately predict the outcome of a case–often it has 0% to do with the actual rule of law. This decision was yet another one of those.

  • Paul White

    First of all this is all incorrect. No “birth control” is being denied to anyone. Every woman including those at Hobby Lobby have full access to any birth control they want. This issue here is paying for it. Second, how many of you know that Hobby Lobby already pays for “Birth Control” for their female employees and will continue to do so. That’s right. This issue is about “post conception,” abortion inducing drugs. Hobby Lobby pays and will continue to pay for 16 of the 20 ObamaCare mandated drugs. There are 4 that induce abortion which the owners of Hobby Lobby and other religious organizations such as Catholic Hospitals (Hobby Lobby is a privately held company), have religious objections. SCOTUS ruling is based on The Religious Freedom and Restoration Act signed by Bill Clinton in 1993. Hobby Lobby does not have to “pay” for these abortion inducing drugs due to their religious beliefs. The female employees can still get them and pay for them themselves. If they cannot afford them they can get it for free at any number of organizations including Planned Parenthood. This ruling has no impact on publicly held companies.

    So all the propaganda about denying anyone access is ignorance, a distortion of the facts, or a lie.

    • Except that the contraceptives Hobby Lobby refuses to cover ARE NOT “abortion-inducing” drugs, no matter what they believe. (Conception has nothing to do with pregnancy. A woman isn’t pregnant until the embryo actually implants in the uterus.) This has been pointed out over and over again. Therefore the decision is based on a lie, rather than scientific fact.

      Religious people can believe whatever they want in their own lives and congregations. They don’t get to impose their beliefs on the rest of society, especially when those beliefs are not empirically true.

      • Allison

        Conception occurs at implantation is a scientific fact?? Show me the evidence. If you look at the medical field conception occurs at fertilization by most authorities. It is true that the American Academy of OB/GYN (and other groups as well) has changed their definition and now says that conception occurs at implantation BUT there is no science to this! It was just “decided”. The moment the egg is fertilized life begins. And as long as this egg is given proper nutrition it will grow. And the fertilized human egg will only remain a human person – it will never become anything else.
        Like each of us – we must have proper nutrition to survive like the fertilized egg. Yes the embryo depends on mom for nutrition but so does every child for years and years!

      • Excuse me, that isn’t what I said. I said conception has nothing to do with PREGNANCY. As others have pointed out, since many fertilized embryos don’t implant, an actual pregnancy doesn’t occur until the fertilized egg implants in the uterine wall.

        “And as long as this egg is given proper nutrition it will grow.”

        Yes, as long as it actually implants. No implantation = no nutrition = no pregnancy, and the egg floats out with the menstrual flow with nobody the wiser–except maybe for God, who must have approved since S/He did nothing to stop it.

      • Allison

        Sorry you did say pregnancy but conception and pregnancy go hand in hand to many medical professionals. Read medical dictionaries – pregnancy begins at conception. It is true some medical groups such as the American College of OB/GYN say pregnancy begins at implantation, this is NOT the consensus in the medical field. Just as many if not more medical authorities state pregnancy begins at conception.
        It is true the embryo needs to implant to continue to live and grow BUT the human life has already begun BEFORE implantation and as long as it implants and gets nutrition the life will continue.

        When a woman has an embryo that stays in the Fallopian tube and begins to grow larger there – so not planted in the uterus – what is that called? Oh, ectopic PREGNANCY! So pregnancy is considered to begin BEFORE implanting in the uterus.

    • Sherri G

      Except on Tues SCITUS clarified their opinion which included ALL 20 CONTRACEPTIVES covered under the ACA!

  • Steve67

    I love it when psuedo-intellectuals act like they are the first ones to think of something. Yeah I am sure none of the five supreme court justices who sided with Hobby Lobby never considered such scenarios. The answer is simple. Cases where the RFRA was rejected (of which there are many) are equally as precedent setting as cases where the RFRA is accepted. A Quaker woman appealed to the RFRA to get out of paying taxes. The court admitted that her religious freedom was compromised but still ruled that the RFRA did not apply. Takei asks where the line will be drawn (again, as if he is the first one to ponder that) the answer is that the line has already been drawn in previous cases. Isn’t it funny that when conservatives use the slippery slope argument we are mocked and ridiculed by so-called progressives but when they think it suits them it’s fine.

  • Jade

    This is where religion goes absolutely wrong. People with their silly belief systems they want to impose on everyone else. Real religion teaches understanding, compassion and generosity. Its a shame that so many miss that point. The problem with this is any fuckin kook with a odd belief or prejudice can limit something so vital as health care. This is going to be an inevitable disaster.

  • FD Brian

    so if an employee gets an abortion with the paycheck she gets from Hobby Lobby, then Hobby Lobby actually blames itself now for essentially providing the funds for that?

  • Quilviov

    This doesn’t give your boss sya over what you can do or purchase yourslef. Only on what they have to pay for. You think not getting something free is the same as having someone keep you from it?

  • bgg

    Just want to point out an error in his comparison. Jews are allowed to use medications derived from pig, as well as implants such as porcine heart valves. The prohibition of eating pig is overridden by the need to save one’s life.
    I think the rest of the errors have been commented on already.

  • Ellen_L

    This is what is part of what is wrong with Obama Care in general. No one should have to pay for things which contradict his convictions nor should anyone deny by force their right to do what they think best. Obama Care is all about forcing everyone into a badly run, force driven, cookie cutter system in which bureaucrats decide what all of us must do. It will force Christians to pay for things they hate and likewise it will do the same to Muslims, Hindus, Jews and everyone else.
    In the Hobby Lobby case, no one did anything except refuse to pay for four of the choices of birth control that they believed could cause abortions. I am pro-choice but also pro their choice to not pay for things they find obnoxious. I go farther I do not think one needs a religious reason to not pay for the arbitrary dictates of systems forced on us nor do I think such systems will work in the long run since they are wasteful and based not on what people individually want but what a few people insist they need and are willing to use their threats and guns to force on us.

  • ddd

    The world is full of dubious organizations. Any one of your pet causes are likely being undermined by groups you do business with or buy products from. This does not make them blatant hypocrites. The dems are always saying “fake scandals”, well there you go. Whether hobby lobby folks are hypocrites or not does not even bear upon the case or issue.

    Your other concerns are valid, and I share them. For me, I needed to know if hobby lobby was actually paying for “birth control”, or if they were paying into a policy for these individuals. If they are being required to pay for abortions or birth control, on a personal level I say I don’t even care what the law is, that is immoral. However if they are required to pay into a general fund which health care later draws from, I believe they should be required to pay into that fund even if it is used for abortions or birthcontrol.

    Sharia Law is an irresponsible analogy. Sharia Law does not say “No, I will not.” Sharia Law says “Yes, you will do” and that is a tremendous difference. Moral objections are only good as a shield, not a sword. You cannot use religion as an excuse to coerce or otherwise “do” unto someone. Religious objections are only good for justifying inaction, it cannot be used to justify actions which are against others in a coercive or invasive aspect. We have the right to say no. Not the right to push through another’s “no”.

  • John Hamilton Lohnes

    There main issues are twofold:

    The problem would be solved for everyone by a single-payer healthcare system with 100% coverage.

    The removal of ‘personhood’ status from corporations.

    There, problems solved.

  • oweniverson

    the long and short is that we just have to voice our opinions with money like everyone else. it’s sad that we can’t ask our government to defend basic human rights because of money, but i guess that’s the kind of screwed up country we’ve become. don’t buy stuff from these types of businesses. and i really wish i had enough money to offer the employees an alternate job somewhere else, but i don’t. oh well, thank you Supreme Court, you continue to make this country suck.

  • Johnny Wishbone

    What is the most absurd extreme can you take it to?

  • Curtis Scarbrough

    Here’s a few tidbits for you “Pro-lifers” to check out.
    Numbers 5:11-31, The “Ordeal of the bitter water” aka, instructions for abortion.
    Also, it has a punishment set out for anyone who causes the termination of a pregnancy outside the above ritual. If the mother isn’t harmed, the person causing said termination has to pay a fine. If they injure the mother in the process, they go with the standard ‘eye for an eye’ etc punishment.

  • Pat-Bob Banning

    As a woman, I always have believed in a woman’s right to choose. Nobody should take that away. The choice and the ensuing consequences will belong to the woman and the woman only. The other side of that coin, in fairness, is that no other person should be forced to make a choice that makes them complicit in something against their faith. Hobby Lobby did not discriminate in any way. They did not prohibit women from freely exercising their choice. They will continue to provide ample birth control choices. They simply want to to be free to CHOOSE to not provide those few types of birth control that expel a fertilized egg from a woman’s body. This is in accordance with the family’s own faith. This is a 5 member family owned business. This is the American Dream. This is not corporate America. This is nothing like Sharia law and, as a woman, I am offended by the comparison. Shame on you, Mr. Takei.

  • Montanna Jones

    So when will we require that corporations disclose their religious beliefs so we can choose whether to support them or not. Christians will not get my support.