Gun Nuts Are Once Again Proving Their Stupidity by Trying to Use Sydney Hostage Situation to Promote Guns

gun-nuts3By now most people are well aware of the hostage situation that recently occurred in Sydney, Australia. When I first heard about this story I just hoped that everything would turn out well. I never thought in a million years that gun nuts would try to use it as some kind of asinine example of why Australia needs more guns.


But the stupidity of these gun fanatics following this hostage situation has been astounding. Some of these people are honestly trying to claim that more guns in Australia could have prevented the whole thing. Now I know these people like to reach for any reason to point and say, “See, guns could have stopped that!” but trying to use this tragedy is not only just absurd, it’s almost comical.

The last thing any gun lover in the United States should be doing is lecturing a country like Australia about violence – especially gun violence.

Let’s just look at the basic facts, shall we?

When looking at gun-related deaths, Australia averages a 1.04 per 100k gun-related death rate compared to the United States at 10.2 (highest in the modern world). We average 88.8 guns per 100 citizens and Australia averages 15.

In fact, we average more guns per citizen than any other developed country on Earth – and we also nearly triple our closest competition when it comes to gun-related deaths per 100k people.

Amazing, isn’t it? The NRA and gun lovers constantly claim that “guns make us safer,” except that’s not at all what actual reality tells us. In fact, these stats would show that the exact opposite is true. We have more guns than any other developed country and we also lead the developed world (by far) in gun-related deaths.

Now let’s focus on just the hostage situation in Sydney.


Aside from the gunman, two other people were killed during this hostage standoff – two. Three times that many died in Pennsylvania recently when a gunman allegedly went and shot and killed six members of his family. And these two deaths in Australia don’t even come close to the 26 lives that were taken at Sandy Hook (27 including the shooter’s mother) or the 12 lives lost in the Aurora, Colorado theater shooting.

All deaths at the hands of lunatics who had easy access to guns.

So spare me this gun-loving b.s. about how guns could have prevented this hostage situation. Because while the loss of these two lives is tragic, that number doesn’t even come close to how many Americans have been killed in this country because of guns.



Allen Clifton

Allen Clifton is a native Texan who now lives in the Austin area. He has a degree in Political Science from Sam Houston State University. Allen is a co-founder of Forward Progressives and creator of the popular Right Off A Cliff column and Facebook page. Be sure to follow Allen on Twitter and Facebook, and subscribe to his channel on YouTube as well.

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  • Charles Vincent

    Wait Australia banned guns so this shit wouldnt happen anymore… seems like it backfired on them.

    • ChutneyIsQueer

      Agreed. All these stupid fookin libtards want to ban guns. Fook them.

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        Hey Asshole i am a liberal and a hunter so i don’t want guns band , i want irresponsible idiots like you not to have guns , the morons on the right wing that think leaving loaded weapons around so little kids can get a hold of them and kill some one is ridiculous , but then again , since you right wingers are against abortion i guess this is better huh , you can get rid of the kids you don’t want and can’t afford just by leaving your guns laying around loaded , so your young kids can get a hold of them and kill each other , with them huh , just like your idea of self deportation for illegals , you guys have self abortion after the birth , you don’t want them hand them a gun , or leave it laying around , kid gets killed or kills its sibling you don’t get in trouble , and you didn’t break your word not to abort , i bet you people would do it right after they were born if you thought they could pull the trigger huh

      • Charles Vincent

        Maybe you should consider teaching your kids and their friend that they are not toys and as such are not to be played with. just saying.. Education is the ounce of prevention rubber neck..

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        First of all its you right wingers that are getting kids killed by not teaching them or sending them some where where they can learn gun safety , and i suggest you take the course yourselves since it very strongly teaches you not to leave guns laying around loaded , all my kids are hunters , 4 girls and 2 sons been hunting and handling weapons since they were 7 years old , and you pushing your garbage onto other countries that they need more guns is ridiculous , since most of you people should not even be allowed to have a gun , your way to irresponsible to own them , 4 kids in Texas over thanksgiving getting killed because of idiots that were supposed to be their parents leaving guns laying around , and that 82 kids a year getting accidentally killed by guns is way low , your facts are way off, , leaving a loaded weapon laying around is no accident , it is a decision made by the individual with the weapon , they know some one can get a hold of it , and they leave it laying around on purpose , all my kids carry and so do i , when we put down our guns the clip is out and the chamber is empty , if you don’t have that kind of intelligence , you don’t belong having a gun

      • Charles Vincent

        I did and do practice firearms safety and so do my children. i been hunting since I was young as well and so have all of my family and extended family and none of us have ever shot anything but the deer we eat. Nice ASSuME there moron.

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        you never learn anything unless you probe , sometimes to invoke an answer you have to use tactics that are sometimes not very nice , sorry to have to attack , like that , i don’t view all right wing gun owners to be as stupid as as most people think , but there dam sure has been a rash of stupidity going on 4 kids over thanksgiving in Texas killed because some parents believe leaving loaded weapons around is a good thing , i have really got to say i am starting to view all of these child deaths because of guns , is the crazy gun owners and pro lifers as a way to appease the church , you can’t abort a child , but leaving a loaded weapon around so a 2 year old can kill him self or a sibling is just fine to them , they don’t get in trouble and they have alleviated themselves of the responsibility by leaving loaded weapons laying around so children can get a hold of them , and i believe it is intentional , which goes along with their irresponsible and audacious display of weapons in public places , this to me is totally asinine , just because you can do something does not mean you should , and these open carry people seem to be quite crazy , just going after that Marine , is enough to say that there are quite a few people that should not be allowed to have weapons , it goes along with the other statement just because you can don’t mean you should be allowed to have a weapon , i would have to say that Marine was a lot cooler than i would have been , he played them off even though they threatened his wife and kids , he let them go , i am very sure i would not have been able to make that decision to allow them to get off with that , the problem with open carry is it allows people of questionable mental capacity , and in the case of those open carry people that threatened that Marine to walk around with weapons loaded, with people who have an anger management problem and could go off and start shooting at any time , i am sorry , but it is the impression most people get when they see some one walking around with a weapon slung around them in a position where they can grab the trigger with out un slinging the weapon at any time , I believe as you 82 is a very low number , and as far as gun control is concerned, i don’t have a problem with it and i believe the only ones that do are the ones that they know themselves that they are way to irresponsible to own a gun ,

      • Charles Vincent

        almost all the accidental shooting reports I have found the child got in the place where the gun was stored i.e. in a bedroom closet on a shelf etcetera that is not laying out hap hazard as you want people to believe.

        This one for example;

        “Breckenridge, Missouri, January 12, 2013 On a Friday evening, Kathy Curtis and her husband left home to run errands, leaving their 12-year-old son Steven at home with a friend and his 13- and 16-year-oldsiblings. Steven’s mother described him as an avid outdoorsman who loved to hunt, and who had a hunter’s safety certification. Nevertheless, while the other children were in a bedroom watching a movie, Steven got into a locked gun safe in the family’s living room and removed a handgun. Investigators later concluded that Steven mishandled
        the gun in the hallway, accidentally shooting himself.”

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        you know any way it is it is a tragedy, did anyone hear of a safe , or a trigger lock , the 4 kids that were killed just last month in Texas a 2 year old getting a gun a loaded one , we can argue this point left and right you can pull up examples of it your way and i can find many more the other way , either way you look at it it is the fault of the adult for leave a clip in the weapon and having one in the chamber , and not having a trigger ;lock or the weapon locked in a safe , and how about the 3 year old that got the gun that was under the couch and shot his mother in the face while she changed his little sister she was 5 feet away , give me a break here , if you are saying it is ok to leave a weapon loaded and leave it laying around then i must ask my self if you are one also that should not be allowed to have weapons , it may be my opinion but i was taught different , i was taught strict gun safety , one of those things was you never leave a weapon loaded unless you intend to use it , and once it is loaded it never leaves you person , and i was taught by my grandfather who grew up in the hills of Virginia , and lived threw the Feuds and killed quite a few people in those feuds , guns are not toys , and if you don’t know how to safely handle them then you should not have them

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        Since most of the kids killed by guns are all in the south , and since the right wing resides mostly in the south i think it is safe to say that the idiot red necks in the south should not have or be allowed to come near weapons , and since most people in the south have about the same intelligence level as Ted Nugent and Sarah Palin , it is safe to say not only should you people not have weapons , you should not be allowed to breed either , then maybe we can raise the IQ level of the US by eliminating , the idiot gene pool , and we will have a whole new source of empty land , since there will be no one left in the south , but then again as i said in a previous post , you people are giving a new name to population control with out abortion , you leave loaded weapons around so 2 year olds can kill themselves or their sisters and brothers , oh and just a week or so ago a 3 year old got a hold of a loaded weapon some stupid adult left under the couch and blew his mother away with it , while she was changing his sister , well is that not just wonderful , right wingers and guns , gun rights , second amendment and open carry , OH YA YOU PEOPLE ARE JUST SO RESPONSIBLE, HELL WE SHOULD ALLOW ALL OF YOU TEACH THE WHOLE COUNTRY HOW EASY T IS TO KILL YOUR KIDS WITH OUT ABORTION , AND WE SHOULD LEARN FROM ALL YOUR OPEN CARRY PEOPLE HOW TO TAKE OFF AFTER MARINES AND THREATEN THEM AND HIS FAMILY , POST VIAL CRAP ABOUT THEM ON FACE BOOK AND CRAP YA WALK INTO TACO BELL AND TARGETS AND SUBWAYS WITH WEAPONS SCARING THE HELL OUT OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND SOME MEN , BECAUSE YOU FEEL THE NEED TO BE IDIOTS

      • Charles Vincent

        “Since most of the kids killed by guns are all in the south”
        You best go check that fact chief cause it is blatantly false.

        You seem to think that stupid only affect people of as certain political ideology or geographic location, again this is demonstrably false.

        We could raise thew IQ level by euthanizing or sterilizing you chief.

        addendum Capslock is not cruise control for cool rubber neck.

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        Ok i goggle just most gun deaths for children in the united states , it came back with a list of the highest states, now from what i see and this is a random site from Google and there are thousands of articles and statistics , the largest amount of deaths are mostly in the southern states , where is the largest concentration of right wingers and open carry and gun rights , and second amendment rights people , in the south , here is the list , check it out yourself

        #1, Mississippi
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 18.3
        Permissive gun laws: 4th out of 50

        #2, Arizona
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 15
        Permissive gun laws: 1st out of 50

        #3, Alaska
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 17.6
        Permissive gun laws: 11th out of 50

        #4, Arkansas
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 15.1
        Permissive gun laws: 7th out of 50

        #5, Louisiana
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 19.9
        Permissive gun laws: 23rd out of 50

        #6, New Mexico
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 15
        Permissive gun laws: 6th out of 50

        #7, Alabama
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 17.6
        Permissive gun laws: 27th out of 50

        #8, Nevada
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 16.2
        Permissive gun laws: 22nd out of 50

        #9, Montana
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.5
        Permissive gun laws: 10th out of 50

        #10, Wyoming
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.5
        Permissive gun laws: 8th out of 50

        #11, Kentucky
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.4
        Permissive gun laws: 5th out of 50

        #12, West Virginia
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.8
        Permissive gun laws: 25th out of 50

        #13, Tennessee
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 15
        Permissive gun laws: 31st out of 50

        #14, Oklahoma
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 13.4
        Permissive gun laws: 17th out of 50

        #15, Idaho
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.5
        Permissive gun laws: 2nd out of 50

        #16, Georgia
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 13.1
        Permissive gun laws: 13th out of 50

        #17, Missouri
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.9
        Permissive gun laws: 12th out of 50

        #18, South Carolina
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 13.4
        Permissive gun laws: 20th out of 50

        #19, North Carolina
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.3
        Permissive gun laws: 28th out of 50

        #20, Florida
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.5
        Permissive gun laws: 41st out of 50

        #21, Kansas
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.5
        Permissive gun laws: 14th out of 50

        #22, Indiana
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.6
        Permissive gun laws: 21st out of 50

        #23, Texas
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.7
        Permissive gun laws: 32nd out of 50

        now how many states do you see that are not red states not controlled by the right wing , one maybe

      • Charles Vincent

        total gun deaths is misleading pull out the accidental deaths and the picture changes. Additionally those numbers include suicide we were talking accidental deaths suicide is intentional not accidental. You really need to tighten up your use of statistics.

        Look at page 7 and 8 and you can see the unintentional deaths is very small from state to state you conflate suicide and homicide with unintentional deaths if you cant see the flaw here nothing I say or show you will make a difference.

        http://www DOT uphs DOT upenn DOT edu/ficap/resourcebook/pdf/monograph DOT pdf

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        we can dance around this all day long , i don’t give a crap if some grown up pulls the trigger on him self , good riddance , and if some criminal pulls the trigger on some one with out a gun , get the guy and kill him on the spot but do it nice and slow and make him suffer for doing it , but the fact that we have idiot gun owners that are parents leaving their weapons around loaded with a round in the chamber and it must be with the safety off , because a 2 year old is not going to know where that is and how to disengage it those are the ones that should not be allowed to have guns , Those people are way to irresponsible to have guns and if you disagree with that then i must say you Echo the ravings of Nugent and the NRA , and as a gun owner that say’s he is a safe gun owner why would you condone such stupidity, every night when i remove my holster and take off my weapons i pull the clips and empty the chambers , and until i put those guns back on i do not load them , thats the way i was taught and that is the safe way

      • Charles Vincent

        “we can dance around this all day long , i don’t give a crap if some
        grown up pulls the trigger on him self , good riddance , and if some
        criminal pulls the trigger on some one with out a gun ,”

        Then stop conflating those numbers with unintentional deaths to bolster your argument, doing so is nothing more than intellectual dishonesty and a piss poor attempt at making a moral high ground argument.

        Please define laying about because where I come from in a closet in my parents bedroom or in a gun cabinet that’s in the living room isn’t laying them around haphazardly.

        “Echo the ravings of Nugent and the NRA , and as a gun owner that say’s he is a safe gun owner why would you condone such stupidity,”

        Please trot over to the NRA web site and look at their firearms safety programs because you have no idea what your talking about when it comes to the NRA promoting unsafe handling of firearms.

        http://training DOT nra DOT org/nra-gun-safety-rules DOT aspx

        Where I come from kids came to school with their shotguns and hunting rifles in the window of their pick up and I was taught to treat all firearms as if they are loaded regardless of them being empty or loaded. and a gun with no bullets is no use in a tense situation.

        Query have you ever been under pressure and had to operate a firearm in a self defense scenario?

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        YOU SAID ,(Query have you ever been under pressure and had to operate a firearm in a self defense scenario?) yes more times than i can count

        YOU SAID ,(Where I come from kids came to school with their shotguns and hunting rifles in the window of their pick up and I was taught to treat all firearms as if they are loaded regardless of them being empty or loaded. and a gun with no bullets is no use in a tense situation.) i have been in tight situations and i can slam a clip in with the best of them , and i want to know how many 2 year olds you know have signed up for the NRA gun safety course , have you seen any of those toddlers at the range , they can be a real surely bunch at times , Why are you defending these parents , that leave the weapons laying around , you know what else , how is a 2 year old going to be strong enough to pull the trigger most triggers are pretty tight , and trip the safety , so we got toddlers that know how to pull back the slide, switch off the safety and pull the trigger , thats good real good , WHY DO YOU DEFEND THESE BLATANT IDIOTS

      • Charles Vincent

        “yes more times than i can count”

        and

        “i have been in tight situations and i can slam a clip in with the best of them”

        You are a minority then because the average person hasn’t been. which fals back to the link i provided and my assertion that education and prqactice of safety are key components of prevention.

        “and i want to know how many 2 year olds you know have signed up for the NRA gun safety course , have you seen any of those toddlers at the range”

        Argumentum Absurdum.

        2 year old going to be strong enough to pull the trigger most triggers are pretty tight , and trip the safety , so we got toddlers that know how to pull back the slide, switch off the safety and pull the trigger ,thats good real good , WHY DO YOU DEFEND THESE BLATANT IDIOTS

        You assume that children are Idiots you also assume a lot about all the accidental shooting that you have no proof of you don’t know if the safety was on or if the firearms were loaded or unloaded you don’t know where people stored them. In fact you missed the one i provided where the kid got the weapon out of a safe and loaded it. Your problem is you make snap judgments and leap to conclusions based on very little facts.
        I am not defending dumb People I am taking issue with how you paint everyone with such a broad brush. Additionally I object to your method not your intent. Your method is squarely out of constitutional bounds and Boiled down to its base you want to place the burden on many people who do act responsibly because of a few Idiots didn’t.

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        a teenager gets a hold of a gun they know better , but any child under 6 , give me a break , you defend these people , you guys can blame liberals wanting to get rid of guns , well not all liberals want to get rid of guns , we want to get rid of the guns from idiots like these , i will have to say i am not surprised , all of you right wingers have the same answer , you will dance around this , even tho you know its wrong , you will justify it any way you can , oh they went into a safe , well the 2 year old who shot his sister in the face didn’t go into any safe he found the gun under moms bed , the three year old that shot himself found the gun in the car , the 3 year old that killed his mom found the gun under the couch

      • Charles Vincent

        “a teenager gets a hold of a gun they know better , but any child under 6 , give me a break ,”

        Apparently you miss my statement lets reiterate it shall we; “they can sure as hell figure out how to operate a firearm and learn safety in a supervised setting.”

        Gun Control and banning of a whole class of firearms has come Solly from the Liberal left sorry but that’s a plain fact.

        “well the 2 year old who shot his sister in the face didn’t go into any safe he found the gun under moms bed , the three year old that shot himself found the gun in the car , the 3 year old that killed his mom
        found the gun under the couch”

        Yes they did but that is irrelevant not all the accidental shooting cases are like that and pretending they are is asinine. youre also creating a false dilemma argument by assuming that those are the only options when there are in reality more.

        “you will dance around this , even tho you know its wrong , you will justify it any way you can ,”

        Again with the assumptions … I am a registered independent and in the middle of the political scale.
        Moreover you are still expecting the majority to pay for the mistakes and carelessness of the statistically insignificant few.

        Would you punish all your children because one did something wrong?
        My guess is no this is what your idiot plan is trying to do.

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        first of all if i had a plan it would be this , don’t take the guns from the people take the f in idiots away from the guns , and any one that leaves a loaded weapon laying around is a f in idiot , those are the ones that i want guns taken away from , gifford’s husband who watched his wife get shot in the head , Gun owners there what do you expect from them , the people who lost their kids , in Sandy hook , what do you expect from them , you ever lost some one you cared about to some stupid fu — with a gun , , i lost my brother to the whole republican party in 83 they murdered him , but i am not trying to get rid of guns , i own a hell of a lot of guns , guns a lot heavier than that puny ass toy Bush master wimp weapons , but i am not stupid or ignorant enough to leave them laying around , if you can’t see that yes there are people in pain that want gun laws tightened , i don’t call back round checks a big deal unless you know you should not have a gun and are afraid to go threw them , which is what this whole ting is about , a tougher back round check may reveal that people with anger management problems and gun fixation problems like the open carry crazies might get their weapons taken away because they are to freaking crazy to have them , 1 oh shit wipes out 10 attaboys , and people getting reps that should not have them well get used to it , all blacks get reps because of a few criminals , all whites get reps because they are murderous people , just ask any Indian they get it because whites are raciest to the core ask any minority the KKK and what we did when we came here gave us that , and right wingers that leave their guns laying around for little kids to get a hold of them and kill them selves or other kids ,have strengthened the thought that right wingers don’t like abortion so they found another way so they can look good to their church and their party by being against abortion but leaving guns around so one or more of their kids can self abort , is OK , get used to it , it is what people think and what they are going to think , take a visual all the media has put out how the militia and even the militia had a sign they were carrying on the border that if a child try to cross the border they would be shot , well you get a rep why do you think , with stuff like that , you look around you and you wonder why people want gun control , i will bet you that there are gun owners on the right that want gun control too but they are just to afraid of the NRA and their party to say anything , every one of the 30 weapons i own is registered , i had to get class 3 permits for sum and have a few tax stamps , and there are some things you have to demonstrate, like a proficiency with fire arms , i say every one should have to go threw a similar back round check like the class 3 , in fact i believe the class 3 should be standard that would weed out a lot of people that should not have weapons , and add a few mental exams to that also , something most people would not want to go threw because they know they should never be allowed to carry or even come close to a weapon

      • Charles Vincent

        “first of all if i had a plan it would be this , don’t take
        the guns from the people take the f in idiots away from the guns , and any one
        that leaves a loaded weapon laying around is a f in idiot ,”

        You cannot legislate stupidity away, that is a fool’s
        errand. You also don’t seem to understand that the best any of us can hope for
        is to mitigate the problem and practice due diligence.

        “the people who lost their kids , in Sandy hook , what do
        you expect from them , you ever lost someone you cared about to some stupid fu
        — with a gun , , i lost my brother to the whole republican party in 83 they
        murdered him ,”

        Argument from pity, Put your big boy panties on Chief We all
        have suffered tragedies some more some less. Do I feel compassion for people
        how have lost someone? Certainly but I don’t argue my case based on emotions I use
        facts period.

        “but i am not stupid or ignorant enough to leave them laying
        around”

        Again with the laying around… having a firearm stored in a
        closest is not “laying around”, Nor is having them in a glass gun cabinet
        (coincidentally how most of my family stores them).

        “i don’t call back round checks a big deal unless you know
        you should not have a gun and are afraid to go threw them”

        I don’t think you know the difference between “background
        check” and “Universal background check”. Additionally according to the DOJ
        paper the only way a universal background check system will work is for there
        to be gun registrations (this is illegal under federal law courtesy of F.O.P.A.).

        “if you can’t see that yes there are people in pain that
        want gun laws tightened”

        I don’t give a crap what people want you nor they get to impede
        my rights without affording me or any other citizen Due Process of law this is guaranteed
        by the constitution specifically “nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
        property, without due process of law”. It will be a cold day in hell before I let
        morons like you deprive me or any other citizen of our natural rights.

        “i don’t call back round checks a big deal unless you know
        you should not have a gun and are afraid to go threw them”

        Not sure if you are aware of this but criminals don’t buy firearms
        from FFL dealers they steal them or buy them from a fence who either bought
        them from someone that stole them or stole them himself. No background check on
        earth will stop a criminal from getting a gun. Additionally almost 90% of the
        mass shooters passed the background checks to get the firearms they used to
        commit their respective crimes.

        The rest of your post is irrelevant nonsense.

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        so by what you are saying is there is no way to fix the problem , i have three weapons i had to go threw some serious checks with the ATF to get , even though they have been in my family for a very long time , since ww2 all are operational , and i had to pay 600 bucks in stamps also , and the gov knows about them , now i never see them , but one time over 20 years ago , as long as you don’t F up your never bothered, so make every one get a class three , criminals i agree hard to stop them , but maybe it can be done , glass case , i wish they are a whole lot cheaper ,

      • Charles Vincent

        No what I am saying is due to human nature the best we can do is minimize the problem.

        ” i have three weapons i had to go threw some serious checks with the ATF
        to get , even though they have been in my family for a very long time ,
        since ww2 all are operational , and i had to pay 600 bucks in stamps
        also , and the gov knows about them , now i never see them ,”

        It’s flatly unconstitutional for the government to convert a right into a privileged by issuing a license or fee to a person before they can exercise said right,
        SCOTUS already settled this. Do I think we need to be trained in the used and safe handling of firearms? Absolutely only an idiot would claim otherwise.

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        i did not like the fact of having to pay a fee to have automatic weapons , and they gave me a real bad time for the German gun in fact it took almost 1 and a half years to get that one cleared , but it is what it is , the second amendment gives us the right to have weapons , but it does not say what kind and it does not say how much the gov can charge you for having weapons , that has always been up to them not us , and if the want to they don’t have to amend the second all they have to do is tax it , some way , you know we have the right to bear arms , but no where does it say the gov can’t pass a law against carrying guns or bringing guns into town , remember during Wyatt Earps time , he banned guns from being able to be carried in town , there is nothing saying that they can’t make laws against carrying them , this is one of the reasons why i want the gun nuts to shut up , you keep pushing these people and they are going to change laws and make new ones to really screw us , look at what states have been doing Calif is probably the worst , but if people keep running their mouths they are going to screw all of us

      • Charles Vincent

        “but it is what it is , the second amendment gives us the right to have
        weapons , but it does not say what kind and it does not say how”
        SCOTUS cleared this up as well;
        “In United States v. Cruikshank
        (1876), the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that, “The right
        to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any
        manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence” and limited the
        applicability of the Second Amendment to the federal government.[9] In United States v. Miller
        (1939), the Supreme Court ruled that the federal government and the
        states could limit any weapon types not having a “reasonable
        relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated
        militia”.”

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        interesting we both came up wit the same thing

      • Charles Vincent

        Actually in at least two original states that i know of it was an illegal offense to not carry a firearm with you and you could be fined for not having it with you when you were traveling on your personal business.

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        really i did not know that , where was that , and how long ago , we talking prior 1900 or after , what was the reason behind that

      • Charles Vincent

        Prior to 1900, and because traveling was a dangerous affair really it is no different now. the laws went away because they did not want to force people to have guns if they had moral objections to them. At least that’s what I gather from reading the information.

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        that is interesting , i did not know that do you have a link to that i would like to study it , i am interested in the thinking of the people that crafted the law , i know it was dangerous , but it is interesting to see they actually crafted a law that way

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        you can’t trust SCOTUS any more they can turn on you in a heart beat , they are owned now , they don’t work for the people anymore

      • Charles Vincent

        True they Vacillate badly, but the SCOTUS cases are Spot on according to the writings of the people who wrote the constitution.

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        See as i see there is a problem with the second amendment , first of all it originally came from the British Constitution , and was written into the Federalist papers , and then during the time the constitution was written , the founders were debating as to weather they wanted to put it in or not , and as we seen it did not make it into the constitution , but it made it 3 years later into the Bill of rights

        this is the problem(In United States v. Cruikshank (1876), the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that, “The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence” and limited the applicability of the Second Amendment to the federal government.[9] In United States v. Miller (1939), the Supreme Court ruled that the federal government and the states could limit any weapon types not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia”.[10][11],and this (The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms.[1][2][3][4] The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled that the right belongs to individuals,[5][6] while also ruling that the right is not unlimited and does not prohibit all regulation of either firearms or similar devices.[7]State and local governments are limited to the same extent as the federal governmentfrom infringing this right per the incorporation of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791, as part of the first ten amendments contained in the Bill of Rights.)

      • Charles Vincent

        The federalist and anti-federalist papers where written during the constitutional convention. and used in the ratification debates.
        It was Hamilton that didn’t want the bill of rights because he and others believed they are inherent rights hence unalienable rights from our creator…
        yes it did which if you read the whole decision its clear that this and all right are natural right of all people.
        NOt many people know there were 6 or & versions of the 2nd amendment.
        Further more can you name any weapon in existance to day that doesnt have a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia”?
        The heller decision and more recently the palmer decision lend more clarity to what the 2a means.

        Moreover in Heller it lists that states can prohibit concealed carry as an example in the Heller case but it cannot prohibit both nor can they ban a whole class of firearms.

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        i guess the question is which version is the right one , the one we perceive as the right one or the one that is on the hand written version of the bill of rights , i believe that the second amendment actually puts the people in direct conflict with each other , meaning that in the ability to put down an insurrection, you put the people at odds with each other not every one is gonna believe in the over throw of the Government which at this point the right wing is pushing for and the Militia’s and the little terror groups that are running around this country , want to do , then you have the other half that want rid of what they view as traitors , which is the right wing as a whole , and the statement that we were endowed by the creator with these rights suggests that God has given us these rights and not everyone believes in God , even the Founders were a debatable bunch when it came to God , and if you talk about what weapons the idiots they call the militia , which i am sorry they are nothing but a giant joke in my opinion , you don’t let them have NUKES or even TANKS or AIRCRAFT or Bombs any thing of a mass destruction type weapon , on each side there are to many people that hate the other side , i hate the republicans because they murdered my brother , in Lebanon in 83 and i will never change my mind on that , so me getting use of a Nuke i would blow the south to hell because that is a major stronghold of the republican party , and i would change that if i could get what is left of the republicans in Regan’s bunch in one place , they made the decision to murder those guys and my brother and should pay for that , as the ones in Bush’s cabinet that engineered a war in Iraq that we should have never been there , and the manipulation today , of the vets that are dying because of lack of care , and that was all done during Bush reign and even he admitted it , the right wing is responsible for every death of a veteran from the Iraq and Afghanistan war , they cut the funding and they deserve to take the hit for it , but thats just my opinion and as we have learned , Opinions are like ass holes , every ones got one and they all stink

      • Charles Vincent

        They are one and the same take a look at the militia act circa 1791.

        WRT government overthrow the founders believed it to be an option of last resort and so do i they knew from first hand experience that governments are bad news when left unchecked the ability to bear arms and to slap down government is valid and they aren’t the only ones who thought so I suggest you read John Locke they borrowed from him heavily.

        wrt god/creator, athiests are a minority something like 90% believe that something created life on earth doesn’t matter what you call it it is our birth right. Locke called this natural law.

        Have a Merry Christmas and a happy new year and my you and yours be safe and the new year bring you great things.

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        A Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year to you and yours from mine to yours also
        now was not the 1791 Militia act superseded by the 1903 Dick Act which named the National Guard as the true Militia

      • Charles Vincent

        ” 1791 Militia act superseded by the 1903 Dick Act which named the National Guard as the true Militia”

        This is untrue the militia act of 1902 only superseded how the militia is to be called up and it created the national guard. National guard is considered organized militia and not the only militia under Federal law.

        10 U.S. Code § 311 – Militia: composition and classes
        (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. (b) The classes of the militia are—
        (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia;and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        you know what i expect , i expect the Majority to stand up and say enough is enough , if you are to irresponsible to keep guns out of the hands of toddlers , if you are to irresponsible to practice gun safety and to put atleast a trigger lock on them or lock them away then you don’t deserve to own one , thats what i expect , and you claim to be a safe gun owner then you should be standing up and saying the same thing

      • Charles Vincent

        “and you claim to be a safe gun owner then you should be standing up and saying the same thing”

        I am only my method is different than yours and it includes education as the key prevention component, which doesn’t violate peoples rights.

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        here is a real good one for you , give a 5 year old a loaded gun for a birthday present and walk away and let them play with it so he shoots his sibling with it , real smart give a 5 year old a gun

      • Charles Vincent

        Argumentum ad absurdum

      • George Patrick Shiflett

        Now this here is the states with varying gun laws most are blue states or Liberal if you like , but you can see the differance between gun laws and lax gun laws , my state is pretty much at the bottom , California has strict gun laws and no open carry we have trigger locks and gun safes , mine has a bio lock on it , it can only be opened by my wife or my self by hand print , and we all carry we have our permits , even my kids have them

        #31, Oregon
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.4
        Permissive gun laws: 30th out of 50

        #32, North Dakota
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.9
        Permissive gun laws: 15th out of 50

        #33, Ohio
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 9.6
        Permissive gun laws: 29th out of 50

        #34, Maine
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.1
        Permissive gun laws: 9th out of 50

        #35, Delaware
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 9.2
        Permissive gun laws: 33rd out of 50

        #36, Wisconsin
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.7
        Permissive gun laws: 34th out of 50

        #37, Nebraska
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 8
        Permissive gun laws: 19th out of 50

        #38, South Dakota
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 6.5
        Permissive gun laws: 16th out of 50

        #39, Washington
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.5
        Permissive gun laws: 37th out of 50

        #40, California
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 9
        Permissive gun laws: 50th out of 50

        #41, New Hampshire
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.9
        Permissive gun laws: 26th out of 50

        #42, Minnesota
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 6.6
        Permissive gun laws: 36th out of 50

        #43, Illinois
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 8
        Permissive gun laws: 45th out of 50

        #44, Iowa
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.3
        Permissive gun laws: 38th out of 50

        #45, New York
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.1
        Permissive gun laws: 43rd out of 50

        #46, New Jersey
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.2
        Permissive gun laws: 49th out of 50

        #47, Connecticut
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 4.3
        Permissive gun laws: 46th out of 50

        #48, Rhode Island
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 3.5
        Permissive gun laws: 42nd out of 50

        #49, Massachusetts
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 3.6
        Permissive gun laws: 48th out of 50

        #50, Hawaii
        Gun deaths per 100,000: 2.8
        Permissive gun laws: 47th out of 50

        now mind you this is random and not complete , but it gives you a general idea , there are more gun deaths in red states than blue states , especially for children , the estimate for child deaths by guns is over 7000 and concentrated mostly in the south , the farther away you get from the south the incidents go down , so who is more irresponsible with guns Liberals or Right wing

      • regressive white trash reli

        that chutney is a new troll profile………..

      • regressive white trash reli

        ^^^^ brand new TROLL^^^ profile^^
        ,,,,,,,,,,soon 2 be banished as all of hos other TROLL profile
        ******************************************************************
        PRAISE JEEEEESUS!

    • Katrina D Umana

      You are stupid and lack reading comprehension skills! They have 15 guns per100 people in Australia! They didn’t ban guns they are allowed shot guns, rifles, and hand guns! The only guns that are banned are semi-automatic guns! Which probably kept the body count down to 2 instead of 26!

      • Charles Vincent

        Please point to where I said all guns.. then get your reading comprehension checked.

        Comparing us to Australia is an apples and oranges deal numb skull.

        You didn’t answer my question you handily side stepped it with an ad hominem attack and a false equivalency. but since you want to talk about body counts in china a group of nut cases stabbed a bunch of school kids to death. but that fact escapes you as does the fact that guns are not and have not ever been the cause of violence.

      • Andrew

        So, you’re saying that someone armed with a knife can just as easily kill people as someone who is armed with a semi-automatic rifle? Or heck, any kind of firearm at all?

        Unless he has some mad ninja skills, chances are, the gun user will always be able to inflict more damage.

      • Charles Vincent

        http://www DOT spartancops DOT com/edged-weapon-mass-murder/

        “Law enforcement officers investigate victims of knife assault, some wounded, some dead. Officers themselves have been victims of knife assault. Officer-victims may be in two categories of surprise. The first category is where the officer is not aware of the knife and or intent to assault. The second category is where the officer is aware of the knife and hoping for surrender, or by overconfidence of their ability. Both are dangerous.

        Uninformed citizens generally have no idea of just how deadly a knife can be. Some of them unfairly criticize police officers for using deadly force on an aggressive offender armed with a knife that invades
        their reactionary gap. Officers are neither “Rambo’s”, nor Magician’s. They have no obligation to try a less than lethal option on someone presenting an imminent threat of deadly force. They are exercising a legal right and trained response to a knife threat. The officers generally know what they are doing and should be allowed to do what they know without unfair criticism.”

      • Katrina D Umana

        You said “Australia banned guns” That implies all guns have been banned! Thst is like saying “The king banned toys” That implies no toys are allowed! Its not just gun deaths but people getting injured too. America shouldn’t lecture other countries about gun violence! Our numbers are embarrassing! I NEVER felt safe in NYC but I sure felt safe in London. Lived there 4 months did here of a single person being shot!

      • Charles Vincent

        No it doesn’t they banned semi automatic firearms, not rocket science. You chose to ascribe meaning to my statement I didn’t intend, in the future I will be more clear. I obviously presumed people to be intelligent enough to grasp what I said, clearly I was incorrect.

        The numbers listed in the article are bunk they included suicide and accidental death in the number neither of which are violent crime.

      • Katrina D Umana

        Sucide and accidental deaths still cost the US money. Your thinking how? Well most sucides are committed by men. In fact I’ve heard that 22 military veterans committ sucide daily. No insurance policy pays out for sucide leaving alot women up a creek with no insurance and kids to take care of and bills to pay. The fact that you want to remove those deaths from the numbers really scares me. Don’t all countries include sucides and accidental gun deaths in their overall gun death numbers? Or is that just America? I’m not against guns my father is from WVA and a veteran I’m talking about always being surrounded by a few shotguns and handguns in the house. I just want some regulations on zombie killing semi-automatic guns. I also want the NIH to finish their study on the cost of gun violence. There are alot of people who get shot and survive. How much did their medical bills cost the taxpayers? How much wages and hours were lost. My aunt was shot twice in the 90s we are talking months of recovery time. Why did her health insurance have to pay when some idiot shot her? So I’m looking forward to those study numbers.

      • Charles Vincent

        Non sequitur and irrelevant suicides and accidental deaths are not violent crime.

        A quote from the article;

        “The last thing any gun lover in the United States should be doing is lecturing a country like Australia about violence – especially gun violence.
        Let’s just look at the basic facts, shall we?”

        See the author is directly speaking to violence and gun related violence when he introduces the link to the “facts”.

        You cant even pick out blatant deceptions so explaining subtle ones is a waste of time.

      • Katrina D Umana

        He didn’t use the phrase “violent crime” He said “gun violence” My question wasn’t answered either. So I’m going to agree to disagree here! America with all our problems shouldn’t lecture any country on lots of issues not just guns! We shouldn’t talk about education our kids constantly test stupid in the world, we shouldn’t lecture on poverty and food security, or on women’s and human rights. We need to just keep our mouths closed on world events! We ain’t number #1 anymore except in military spending!

      • Charles Vincent

        Name one country were gun violence is not against the law. And for the record here is the definition of violence that is applicable to the context of this article.

        “an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights or laws:”

        WRT your questions;
        I did answer them they are all off topic and irrelevant to the point I made in my OP which you still don’t seem to understand.

      • Katrina D Umana

        I’ve said we are going to have to agree to disagree! Peace and Happy Holidays to you!

    • Andrew

      I can’t believe conservatives are this stupid…

      Australia has 15 guns per 100 people, and 1.04 deaths per 100,000 people.

      America has 88.8 guns per 100 people, and 10.8 deaths per 100,000 people.

      Does this *really* need explaining?

      • Charles Vincent

        “The last thing any gun lover in the United States should be doing is lecturing a country like Australia about violence – especially gun violence.
        Let’s just look at the basic facts, shall we?”

        The problem here is the fluffed data Allen is using to perpetrate a deception on moronic mouthbreathers like you.

        The data he references includes things like suicide and accidental deaths which are not violent crimes. The excerpt above is from this article. The relevant portion is this “lecturing a country like Australia about violence – especially gun violence.”
        A rather unsubtle piece of sophistry that you and many others are too dense too grasp.

      • Andrew

        Why, exactly, does it matter where the gun deaths come from? Unless I’ve mistaken, the bottom line is this: They have less guns, and less deaths.

        Honestly, there is no legitimate reason to own anything more powerful than a hunting rifle, shotgun, or handgun.

      • Charles Vincent

        He is passing them off as gun violence re this quote from the article “lecturing a country like Australia about violence – especially gun violence.”

        This is not true, like it or not you and others are being duped by this deception.

        WRT > “Honestly, there is no legitimate reason to own anything more powerful than a hunting rifle, shotgun, or handgun.”

        Self defense is a legitimate reason and always has been. Modern sporting rifles are a smaller caliber than traditional hunting rifles and as Americans we are guaranteed the Right to own firearms for protection something any firearm in existence fills that roll including modern sporting rifles, each firearm has a roll to which it is best suited if you don’t understand that I can’t help you.

      • Andrew

        Using a semi-automatic rifle for self defense really isn’t practical. It’s asinine to carry it around in public, and a handgun is better suited for in-home defense. A handgun is easier to store in a concealed location within a home, and is also easier to access faster.

        if someone owns a semi-automatic rifle, I would hope they don’t just have it popped against the wall, and you can’t exactly just lock in your bedside table.

        I agree sporting is a valid reason, but why does someone need to own a gun? I would support a ban on all semi-automatic rifles, but I would also support heavily monitored gun ranges where individuals can use higher-caliber weapons to their hearts content.

        The second amendment already has restrictions. I cannot go out and purchase an automatic weapon. I cannot purchase a grenade launcher or any other type of explosive weapon. I simply see no harm in adding another dangerous weapon to the “do not own” list.

      • Charles Vincent

        Arson, Stabbing Rampage in Seoul South Korea : 10/20/2008. 6 people dead, 5 from stabbing. 7 others wounded, 4 seriously. An angry man felt people “looked down on him.”

        Anti-police stabbing spree in Shanghai, China: 7/2008. 6 Police Officers stabbed to death, 4 wounded. 28 year old man angry at police attacked a police station with a knife.

        Akihabara Massacre, Chiyoda City, Tokyo, Japan:
        6/8/2008. 7 people killed (3 struck by car, 4 by stabbing), many more
        injured. Man slammed into a crowd with his car, then jumped out and
        began stabbing people to death.

        18 year old slashes 4 to death in Sitka, Alaska, US:
        3/25/2008. 4 people killed. 18 year old (old enough to purchase a rifle
        over the counter) kills 4 people, related to him, with a 5 inch knife.

        Stabbing Spree kills 2, Tsuchiura, Japan: 3/23/2008. 2 killed, 7 wounded. Man “just wanted to kill anyone.”

        Stabbing spree wounds 41, 6 seriously in Berlin Train Station:
        5/26/2006. 41 wounded, 6 seriously. Thankfully no one died in this
        attack, but not for lack of trying on the part of the drunk 16 year old.

        4 killed in stabbing spree in London, UK: 9/2004. 4 killed, 2 wounded. Mentally ill man attacks mostly older people.

        6 killed over Xbox dispute in Deltona, Florida, US:
        8/6/2004. 6 killed. 4 men (all old enough to legally purchase firearms)
        bludgeon 6 people to death with baseball bats over purloined Xbox.

        Daegu subway fire, Daegu, South Korea:
        2/18/2003. 198 killed, 147 injured. A 56 year old unemployed taxi
        driver, dissatisfied with his medical treatment, sets fire to a crowded
        train.

        Osaka School Massacre, Osaka Japan:
        6/8/2001. 8 children dead, 13 other children and 2 teachers wounded.
        Committed by 37 year old former janitor armed with a kitchen knife.

      • Charles Vincent

        WRT
        “The second amendment already has restrictions. I cannot go out and
        purchase an automatic weapon. I cannot purchase a grenade launcher or
        any other type of explosive weapon. I simply see no harm in adding
        another dangerous weapon to the “do not own” list.”

        Actually you can buy a fully automatic weapon and a grenade launcher the paper work and legalities are on the AFT web site.
        The supreme court already defined the limitation that is “any weapon suitable for military use.”

        WRT
        “but why does someone need to own a gun?”
        1) Provide food for family
        2) recreation/competative sport
        3) self defense

        WRT
        “Using a semi-automatic rifle for self defense really isn’t practical. It’s asinine to carry it around in public, and a handgun is better suited for in-home defense. A handgun is easier to store in a concealed location within a home, and is also easier to access faster.
        if someone owns a semi-automatic rifle, I would hope they don’t just have it popped against the wall, and you can’t exactly just lock in your bedside table.”

        different firearms have different purposes you know pick rthe right tool for the job and one should have several tools in order to cover a range of need in his/her preparedness for defending him/herself.

      • Nick

        Andrew, the 2nd Ammendment does not contain the restrictions you are speaking of, the “Gun Control Act of 1968” does…

      • regressive white trash reli

        c’ept……………………….
        “OBAMAS coming for (y)our guns”

    • regressive white trash reli

      violence/ killing
      =================================================
      im on the gun REGISTRATION bandwagon

      • Charles Vincent

        Empirically that leads to confiscation. Secondly registrations of firearms by government(city, county, state, or federal) is against federal law per FOPA (Firearms Owners Protection Act circa ~1986)

      • regressive white trash reli

        its time to change the law,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, cars are registered; real tough to sell one without proper documented ownership
        ======================================
        and,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, exactly WHEN is ” OBAMA COMING FOR (Y)OUR GUNS”??

  • ChutneyIsQueer

    Hi my name is Frank Cuffman and I am a fookin queer.

  • Jim Bean

    “When looking at gun-related deaths, Australia averages a 1.04 per 100k gun-related death rate compared to the United States at 10.2.”

    That’s half the equation. Here’s the other half.

    “When looking at gun deaths, America averages roughly 2.9 homicides in the white community per 100k and that includes not only guns but hammers, knives, blunt objects, etc. Another fun fact is that is Australia is roughly 92% white and 7% Asian.”

    One gathering data in order to craft an intelligent opinion or plan of attack on violence would want to have all the relevant information.

    • Charles Vincent

      Then one should leave inanimate object out of the discussion.

  • strayaway

    This is the second article I’ve seen from the left trying to shift the focus from the motivations and ideology behind the event in Australia to gun control even though it was a failure of gun control. Elsewhere, we are told that this was another lone wolf attack. It can’t have anything to do with ideology and immigration policy after all. Then, the next day, 135 children were mostly gunned down in Pakistan. I am waiting for another Forward Progressive article making the same point that Pakistan still has a lower gun homicide rate than the US despite its isolated event.

  • Macdoodle

    More liberal lies……The dubious distinction of having the most gun violence goes to
    Honduras, at 68.43 homicides by firearm per 100,000 people, even though
    it only has 6.2 firearms per 100 people.The US is about 10th on the list….And take away our 3 most violent cities and we drop off the charts.And that is mostly black on black crime.

    • Andrew

      You might want to… read the article you’re commenting on first?

      • Charles Vincent

        Take your own advice dilhole

      • Andrew

        I did, what am I missing, exactly? Also, there’s no need to be rude.

      • Charles Vincent

        Here again is why;
        “lecturing a country like Australia about violence – especially gun violence.”

        The author of the article is conflating suicide and accidental deaths with violent crime i.e. murder with the numbers he provided that’s why what Macdoodle said is accurate he read the article you did not.

      • Andrew

        The original commenter seemed to be implying that the author was ignoring places such as Honduras.

        However, the author clearly stated that he was only counting “developed” countries. I don’t believe Honduras is part of that grouping.

      • Charles Vincent

        no he was implying that its gun violence which is what the author was doing but the author conflated developed country or not. ask yourself this why is violence higher in underdeveloped nations. and answer my original question from my OP.

      • regressive white trash reli

        chuckles get irked when I call him names
        ********************************************************
        but; please be nice to Charles– hes sensitive

  • Macdoodle

    Yeah if a madman walks into a place where Im eating and starts shooting people Im gonna be shooting back not cowering under a table waiting for him to execute me.

    • regressive white trash reli

      I doubt you carry a loaded weapon in public
      ============================================
      …..other than your incredible “wit”