Rep. Steve King Says Any Government Shutdown Will Be the Fault of Obama “Tantrum” — Not Republicans

steve-king-loonyThis is by far my favorite argument that I’ve seen coming from Republicans when it comes to pretty much anything.  It’s so absurd that it just makes me wish for a moment I could be inside their heads, because I would love to see what reality is like on their planet.

Because, based on comments such as those of Republican Rep. Steve King, many of them sure as heck aren’t living on this one.

See, according to Rep. King, if the government does end up getting shut down it won’t be the fault of Republicans—it’ll all be President Obama’s fault.

Let’s take a look at his “reasoning” for this:

“So the House will make sure that the funds are available.  And if the president should decide he’s going to shut down the government, it will never be the House of Representatives, if this happens it will be either an act of either Harry Reid and the Democrats in the Senate or the president or them working in conjunction with each other.  If the president decides to shut the government down, it will be the equivalent of a political tantrum, saying ‘I will have my piece of signature legislation even if the American people reject it and I’ll punish you by shutting the government down if I don’t get my way.'”

And he’s dead serious.

Basically, because the House passed legislation that funds the government but strips funding for the Affordable Care Act (which the president has clearly stated he would veto if it ever reached his desk — and it won’t), that’s King’s reasoning behind how this is President Obama’s fault.

Because, as King puts it, the American people have “rejected” Obamacare.

Really?  Have they?

Last I checked, during the 2012 election Democrats gained power in both the House and the Senate and President Obama overwhelmingly won reelection.

Also, last I checked, the Affordable Care Act is the law of the land.  It was passed by Congress, signed by the president and supported as Constitutional by our Supreme Court.

So exactly where are the “American people” rejecting this?

And let’s not forget that a large factor behind the irrational fear of “Obamacare” stems from the blatant lies and countless campaigns of misinformation conservatives have levied against it.  They’ve attempted to create such fear and paranoia about the law that most Americans don’t even know anything factual about it.

Just look at the newest fear campaigns funded by the Koch brothers for proof.  “Creepy Uncle Sam” rising up from between a woman’s legs and behind a nude man lying in the fetal position.  Seriously.

But it’s absolutely hysterical that any Republican would claim it would be the fault of President Obama and Democrats if the government does in fact get shut down.

If the majority of the Senate says, “We won’t pass any bill which defunds Obamacare” and the president says, “I will veto any bill which defunds Obamacare,” then the House passes a bill which defunds Obamacare — you blame the one branch which did exactly what the other two clearly said they wouldn’t support.

You don’t “negotiate” by coming to the table with your only offer being the one thing the opposition said they absolutely will not, under any circumstances, support.

But the bottom line is, Republicans are completely delusional.  Somehow they think losing the 2012 presidential election, along with losing power in both the House and Senate, gives them a “mandate” from the American people.

And polls clearly show that if a shutdown does occur, the American people will overwhelmingly blame Republicans—not Democrats.

Which they should.  President Obama and Congressional Democrats want to continue to fund our government and raise our debt ceiling so we can pay our bills, two moves which should have bipartisan support without exception.  Yet Republicans are trying to turn both of these situations into a means by which to blackmail the president and hold our country hostage for their own political agenda.

But mark my words, this is just the beginning.  We’re already seeing breaks in the conservative ranks and infighting going on about this whole ordeal.

I have a strong feeling that this is the first big break in the GOP.

So while Rep. King can accuse President Obama of throwing some kind of “political tantrum,” he might want to take a good look at his own party.

Because they’re the ones who’ve been consistently acting like petulant children.

Allen Clifton

Allen Clifton is a native Texan who now lives in the Austin area. He has a degree in Political Science from Sam Houston State University. Allen is a co-founder of Forward Progressives and creator of the popular Right Off A Cliff column and Facebook page. Be sure to follow Allen on Twitter and Facebook, and subscribe to his channel on YouTube as well.

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  • Pipercat

    Moreover, the ACA is primarily financed through mandatory spending resolutions. The part in discretionary spending is small in comparison. The whole notion of the last chance to stop the ACA is dubious at best. Even worse, the little bill sent to the Senate is another can kicker. Only funds discretionary spending through December 15th. Then, this starts all over again just before Christmas while Congress is out drinking eggnog and eating gingerbread men. This whole exercise is ridiculous.

    • Cindy Mello

      I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…For republicans, trying to understand facts, is like trying to smell the color 9.

  • Karla Ibsen

    It really is very hard to understand the reality of these Republicans. It’s like they really believe if they say something enough times, it might become true. All the while, they don’t see that their bubble is shrinking. Reasonable people everywhere are thinking “enough already” and want our country to start moving forward. I suppose, though, that just as a child cannot understand the perspective of an adult, these Republicans cannot understand the thinking of reasonable people.

    • Tamarack

      And we can thank Chuck Todd and others for mindlessly reporting the GOP’s “facts.”

      • jeff zimmerman

        I don’t blame chuck todd..he is told by upper management to make a story out of one that isn’t there…like they do on foxnews and cnn…which is overkilling any type of news reporting, they have to make a paper cut look ‘OMG..THIS IS TERRIBLE!!” lol

      • Tamarack

        There’s plenty of blame to go around. But if he thinks he’s doing his job by just repeating talking points without fact checking, then he deserves a big heaping portion of it.

      • Karla Ibsen

        That’s sadly too true. Many news “journalists” have been woefully inadequate.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Journalism died when Walter Cronkite retired.

  • jeff zimmerman

    if the republicans blame Obama for this, it is their death knell; they have no clue on what America wants or needs, or has to have as a country!! to just complain about the president and not come back with any legitimate idea to fix or make better any idea this president has, is just irresponsible and I WANT MY MONEY BACK FOR PAYING THESE IDIOTS TO DO NOTHING!!!

    • Guy_in_Kingston

      It has been liberal policies that have destroyed it…..the rest ofthe world is better off than America now….THANK YOU. The only way to fix America is to do away with liberals. Every liberal country eventually falles apart the same way. America is the new Europe….LOL It’s funny watching the collapse.

      • Mark Gruben

        Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong. The nation has NOT been destroyed. The rest of the world is NOT better off. America as a nation does NOT need fixing. We can NOT “do away with liberals” (and…..gulp….how were you proposing to do that anyway?) No “liberal country” has ever fallen apart; what exactly is a liberal country anyway? America is NOT the new Europe; Europe itself is the only new Europe we’re ever going to see. And, lastly, there isn’t anything remotely funny about “watching the collapse” because America isn’t collapsing. If were, would you honestly…..honestly…….find that funny? What kind of American citizen would find humor in the nation’s distress?

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        Yes….America is in collapse thanks to liberals policies. Business is moving out……7 out of 10 new jobs are part time…minimum wage. a debt of $15 TRILLION $5 TRILLION in the last 5 years along….another $55 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities….cities all over America are on the verge bankruptcy. 29 hours a week is the new full time thanks to Bobo Care……It’s both sad and funny at the same time. There is no saving it now….it’s over.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        You are pretty funny, you know. Employers have been hiring part-timers for the past 20-30 years. Obamacare provides a convenient excuse to do something they would do anyway. I’m not quite sure what you expect or why you even care.

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        No the increase in part-time workers has been in the last year. Punishing employers who hire full-time workers is not an excuse. It’s a punishment for giving people a full-time job. The good news is millions no longer have to worry about ever getting a full time job.

      • Canth Decided

        Businesses have been moving out of this country because of cut-throat capitalism. Why don’t companies want to keep things in America?
        Because Americans expect to be paid a living wage for their work, as they should, and companies, perpetually chasing the bottom line that will pad their shareholder’s pockets, abandon this country for places that pay their workers pennies, without benefits, pensions, or pesky safety regulations that cost them money.

        They are leaving this country because their goal is to make money, and ONLY make money, as much money as can possibly be made, on the backs of those who are too poor to try and fight for better conditions.

        Your willful ignorance of the last 120 years of this country’s industrial practices has led you to this simplistic explanation, and it’s been scientifically proven that people like you will never change your minds, because you only accept data which reinforces your bias.

        Liberals gave you eight hour work days, five day work weeks, and the weekend. Liberals gave you safe places to work. Liberals gave you conditions meant to keep companies from poisoning you and your children with their manufacturing processes and their products.

        They are not hiring full time workers because they want to make more money, not because of evil liberal government being mean to them. And you are all for that, apparently.

        Lunatic.

  • Austin Brenan

    I just find it funny that the GOP actually believes that most of the American people don’t really know what’s going on and think that they can keep making shit up without it catching up with them in the end. Yes, they’re THAT ignorant…………

    • SophieCT

      And I don’t find it funny that so many American people are falling for this crap and really don’t know what’s going on. I am scared shitless by the ignorance of the average Fox News viewer.

      • Mark Gruben

        Me too, Sophie! Anyone who relies on Fox, and only Fox, for their news is woefully – even dangerously – uninformed.

  • Scott Davis

    The majority do not like the ACA act. That’s the only thing the Republicans have going for them. I think it is disinformation causing it too. Most Americans do not know the fundamentals: In the developed world, the USA stands alone as the only country without universal health care. The USA spends double the amount the average developed country pays for health care, though we are 34th in outcomes, worse than any other developed country and closest to Slovenia on the list. Life spans are decreasing. Only 80% have coverage. The ACA is a good first step in addressing these problems. There are no other solutions possible in the current political climate that address the uninsured and the abuses of the insurance industry.

    • suburbancuurmudgeon

      The “majority” don’t like the ACA because they either don’t understand it. have been fed a constant line of BS or, like me, think ACA didn’t go far enough. But more Republicans like it if you call it the ACA instead of Obamacare, even though they are the same.

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        Than why don’t politicians want it for themselfves and families?…..Are you claiming that those who made the laws don’t understand it? Not a chance. The unions are also fighting against it…..it’s your claim that Unions don’t understand it….LOL What a liberal idiot you must be…..I assume your live off other people like most liberals parasites. How are theAmerican people going to survive on a 29 hour work week? This is what Bobo Care has done.

      • PJay

        You might want to investigate a few facts rather than repeat the fear-mongering propaganda spread by Fox News! By the way, you do realize the majority of all those red conservative states are the poorest in the country, right? You’d think with their wise Republican leaders, their economies would be thriving. Not so much. You sound like one of the wild-eyed hysterical Steve King types. Oh no, the sky is falling. The sky is falling. What a bunch of loons.

      • Mark Gruben

        Suck it up, Sad Sack. The ACA is the law of your land, and “Bobo” is your President, just like everyone else in the country. If the Republicans were really interested in helping the nation find solutions to its health care problems, those solutions would be so much nearer than they are right now. The GOP response of standing outside the door whining and pissing in their pants has not helped matters one whit.

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        Bobo the homo is not my President….I am on the other side of the border watching the collapse of America…..You have sent use your jobs by the thousands. Did you know we were UNTOUCHED by the “so called” financial collapse? I bet not…..did you know the De-toilet auto industry is just a few hundred miles from where it used to be before the liberals drove them out? The liberal over taxation, over regulation…giant communist government approach has destroyed and now the collapse is near. $15 TRILLION in debt…..so far in debt that every 3 months you have to raise the debt limit so you can go further in the hole….LOL $5 TRILLION in new debt in the last 5 years alone. Looking at America with Obama in charge is like watching the trade centers come down.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Yeah, and YOU have Canadian Medicare. Wanna join the American system as we know it? And where were you when Bush doubled our debt by charging two wars on a chinese credit card? Or do you, like most other conservative idiots, think a $10 trillion dollar debt magically materialized on January 20, 2009?

      • Charles Vincent

        Where were you when Obama matched 8 years of bush debt in 4 years?

        http://www DOT ask DOT com/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_public_debt?o=2800&qsrc=999&ad=doubleDown&an=apn&ap=ask DOT com

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Obama inherited the debt for two wars that Bush kept off the books. Swing and a miss. Remember Reagan TRIPLED the debt.

      • Charles Vincent

        FDR multiplied the debt 16 fold. See what I did there?

        AND Obama created a 1.1 trillion dollar ACA that benefits no one but the insurance market.

        You’re playing the I don’t want to look at the big picture game and the only “ace” you have is its bush’s fault or Reagan’s fault or anyone’s fault but the guy sitting in the oval office currently.

        Obama is spending more plain and simple and by 2016 he will have created more debt than all other presidents combined here are the CBO numbers for his budget;

        http://www DOT cbo DOT gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/2011-03-18-APB-FederalDebt_0 DOT pdf

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        And FDR multiplied the debt for good reason. Bush did it for bad reasons. What’s your problem with spending money if it’s for a good reason?

        12/31/2000 (End of
        Clinton Era) $5,662,216,013,697

        12/31/2008 (End of Bush Era)
        $10,699,804,864,612

        12/31/2012 (End of Obama’s First Term) $16,432,730,050,569

        So it looks like Bush doubled the debt. Obama hasn’t and has $3.6 trillion to go to get there, so he has NOT “created more debt than all other presidents combined.” Nice try but you lose again.

      • Charles Vincent

        The part you missed was BY 2016 he will have created more debt.
        MY problem is you want to blame it all on bush when it isn’t just bush. And in general I have a problem with the spend spend spend attitude of congress STOP spending period if you don’t make enough revenue you need to cut back spending until the revenue you have covers what you spend period.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Prove to me BY 2016 he will have created more debt. The deficit has already dropped because of increased revenue. It’s nice that you can predict 3 years into the future. And if he did, so what if it goes to good use?

        If we all had to spend only the revenue we had, none of us would have mortgages or credit cards. Prove to me that our spending has put us in mortal danger (which it hasn’t). Spending only became a problem when Obama was elected. Before that, none of you cared how much Bush spent. THAT is the reason I continually bring up Bush.

      • Charles Vincent

        No spending has been a problem since oh before WWII
        http://en DOT wikipedia DOT org/wiki/File:Federal_Debt_Held_by_the_Public_1790-2013 DOT png
        Please pay attention to the total debt in 2016;

        http://www DOT cbo DOT gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/2011-03-18-APB-FederalDebt_0 DOT pdf

        “If we all had to spend only the revenue we had, none of us would have mortgages or credit cards.”

        This isn’t about personal spending which we have to contain with in our means or face the consequences of our over spending, this is about government spending stop obfuscating.

        look at the history of our debt and the recessions that the government didn’t spend spend spend on ans guess what they went away without incurring more debt.

        http://en Dot wikipedia DOT org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_public_debt

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Uh, you seem to forget Eisenhower borrowed a crapload of money, built schools,bridges, hospitals and the Eisenhower Interstate Highways System, and then retired the debt.

        I’ve seen the history of the debt. I’m not sure what point you are trying to make. I LIKE government spending. It provides me with the benefits of civilization.

        So, what do you propose we stop spending money on? My vote would be defense.

        And again, where were you when Bush was running up our debt.

      • Charles Vincent

        I was asking why the hell are we running up the debt.

        http://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=p0RkWqyn1y4

        http://www DOT cbo DOT gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/new/budgetinfographic DOT png

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Again, tell me where we should stop spending.

      • Charles Vincent

        Here is a speech by Ben Bernake on how the fed made the great depression worse; skip to the summary if its to long.

        http://www DOT federalreserve DOT gov/boarddocs/speeches/2004/200403022/

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Uh, we had a recession and things have gotten better. Or don’t you think so? And the US economy was vastly different in 1929 than in 2013

      • Charles Vincent

        Yes it was different. No we aren’t out of this recession yet. The economy is still sluggish. And there are still parallels between this recession and the great depression.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Parallels…like the fact that the rich don’t give a $hit about anyone but themselves?

        Lessee, record stock market highs, housing prices are up, unemployment is down from 10%. If you have any viable suggestions for stimulating the economy, I’m all ears. Tax cuts aren’t going to do it; demand creates jobs. The European markets that tried the austerity route have economies that are still in the crapper. We could start another war, but I wouldn’t recommend that.

      • Charles Vincent

        If you have any viable suggestions for stimulating the economy, I’m all ears.

        “Parallels…like the fact that the rich don’t give a $hit about anyone but themselves?”
        Not sure this is true the depression ruined some of them as well”
        We saw record highs before the DOT com and housing bubbles burst
        “unemployment is down from 10%”
        yep 7.3% would like to see 5.8 or lower like back in Jan of 2003.
        “If you have any viable suggestions for stimulating the economy, I’m all ears.he European markets that tried the austerity route have economies that are still in the crapper.’
        This;

        http://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=64eI831eKY8

        “Tax cuts aren’t going to do it;”
        Nope need to have taxes stay relatively where they are and cut spending.

        ” We could start another war, but I wouldn’t recommend that.”
        Not only no but hell no.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        I like the idea of indicting the bankers!!! Most of us would say it should have happened 4 years ago.

      • Charles Vincent

        It’s going to require hard cuts to both mandatory and discretionary spending and sticking with it for a good long while. just like that YouTube video government by the minute. Well off to work more later.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Yeah I gotta start dinner. BUt we could start by raising taxes on corporations making boatloads of money like the good old days.

      • Charles Vincent

        I don’t agree with some of the things Cenk talks about but on this issue hes on point.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        And you might want to peruse this one:

        http://thinkprogress DOT org/economy/2013/02/24/1626801/debt-does-not-exist/

        For anyone who is interested in who actually owns our debt, there are three charts here:

        http://www DOT fool DOT com/investing/general/2012/12/11/who-owns-our-national-debt DOT aspx

      • Charles Vincent

        This article says different;

        http://www DOT policymic DOT com/articles/15723/obama-and-the-national-debt-president-misleads-public-on-his-role-in-exploding-the-national-debt

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        I think the Washington Post article argues with Obama’s percentages…

        “We are not trying to make excuses for the fiscal excesses of the Bush administration — and Congress — in the last decade. But at some
        point, a president has to take ownership of his own actions.

        Obama certainly inherited an economic mess, and that accounts for a large part of the deficit. But Obama pushed for spending increases and tax
        cuts that also have contributed in important ways to the nation’s fiscal deterioration. He certainly could argue that these were necessary and important steps to take, but he can’t blithely suggest that 90 percent of the current deficit “is as a consequence” of his predecessor’s policies — and not his own.”

        Therein lies the difference.

      • Charles Vincent

        It was more to illustrate that Obama needs to stop blaming bush and so do democrats/liberals/progressives, we have what we have now and we aught to deal with it swiftly. Moreover its about cutting through some of the rhetoric and divisiveness that is causing some of our problems and ultimately preventing a us from fixing the big problems we face.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        No, we will continue to blame Bush because Bush created the conditions that wrecked the economy. We will continue to blame the Republicans because they have blocked every effort Obama proposed to fix the economy and have no alternatives beyond “tax cuts.” There are fixes. Pour money into infrastructure repair and you’ll put hundreds of thousands of people to work.

      • Charles Vincent

        “No, we will continue to blame Bush because Bush created the conditions
        that wrecked the economy. We will continue to blame the Republicans”

        This just continues the vicious cycle

        ” Pour money into infrastructure repair and you’ll put hundreds of thousands of people to work.” this runs up the debt if you don’t cut spending back to what our revenues are.

        “because they have blocked every effort Obama proposed to fix the economy and have no alternatives beyond “tax cuts.””
        This requires funding we don’t have.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        You do like Eisenhower and borrow the money, or slash defense spending. Jobs put money in people’s pockets. People spend that money, which creates demand. Demand creates jobs and more jobs.

      • Charles Vincent

        We have to cut more than defense spending. We have borrowed way to much money for that to be feasible at this time.

        ” Jobs put money in people’s pockets. People spend that money, which creates demand. Demand creates jobs and more jobs.”
        Yes and no if the jobs created are mostly minimum wage job it does nothing to stimulate demand to a meaningful degree. If the jobs created are middle income jobs in the private sector yes this creates demand and helps the economy.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Raise the minimum wage. Australia’s minimum wage is $16.35 and they are doing just fine. Again, be specific. What jobs do you propose creating and how?

        So you don’t believe “government jobs” (teachers, cops, firefighters) are “real jobs?”

      • Charles Vincent

        “Raise the minimum wage. Australia’s minimum wage is $16.35 and they are doing just fine.”
        This;
        http://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=Ct1Moeaa-W8

        “What jobs do you propose creating and how?”

        I am saying when the recession hit a lot of the middle class wage jobs went bye bye, and they were replaced by minimum wage jobs this doesn’t help create demand.

        But if those middle class wage jobs were replaced byt more jobs that paid middle class wage or better that would create the demand from spending and help turn the economy up.

        “So you don’t believe “government jobs” (teachers, cops, firefighters) are “real jobs?””
        No. I think they are some of the jobs that provide a tangible benefit to the public at large but they have been severely damaged by government intervention and regulation in the case of schools, Police need to be bound by the same laws they up hold and currently they are not that thin blue line and all. Firefighters and park rangers really are not bad off as far as government interference visa regulations.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        The people who can create middle class jobs are only interested in their own profits. As one of them said, “We’re not in business to create jobs. We’re in business to earn a return
        on investments for investors. Sometimes you create jobs. Sometimes you
        lose jobs.” http://www DOT politico DOT com/story/2013/05/private-equity-tries-for-2014-redo-92001_Page2.html

        That is why manufacturing went to Mexico, India and China. Technology has replaced a lot of people – you can do more with fewer people by using robots. So, in the short term, government can be the greatest stimulus to the economy.

        What “government intervention” in schools? I’m a product of the public school system and I’m doing fine. 96% of the kids in my son’s high school go on to college.

      • Charles Vincent

        “That is why manufacturing went to Mexico, India and China. Technology
        has replaced a lot of people – you can do more with fewer people by
        using robots. So, in the short term, government can be the greatest
        stimulus to the economy.”

        For manufacturing this is true but we didn’t replace those jobs with another job that pays equivalent wages.

        “”We’re not in business to create jobs. We’re in business to earn a return on investments for investors.”

        Ironically technology helps them make a product faster and cheaper. which is good for the consumer and cheaper products allow the consumer to create demand because they have more money to spend on other products.

        “”What “government intervention” in schools? I’m a product of the public school system and I’m doing fine. 96% of the kids in my son’s high school go on to college.”
        Not every one goes to your school. Take a look at Detroit they pay teachers on the average of 73K a year which is almost 20K more than the national average, and they still have a population (47%) that are functionally illiterate its about more than just where you live and its about how more government funding and regulation of schools fails, for instance in the 1920’s there were ~150,000 school districts nation wide BY the 1960’s there were only 15,000 schools are just like the market when there is competition you get a better product (in this case the product is a higher quality education across the board).

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Detroit is ONE CITY that everyone likes to pick on. Detroit’s biggest problem was white flight to the suburbs, which are doing quite well, thank you. The jobs went, the tax base went, and the resulting high unemployment left no tax revenue for schools, which isn’t anything the schools can solve.

        There is no competition in my suburbs and we have an excellent educational system. Why? Because we have high property taxes, but no one complains because the benefit outweighs the pain. So I still don’t see how there is widespread disaster in the public school system.

        Teacher salaries for Illinois are available online. My kid’s guidance counselor in the burbs was making $106K 13 years ago. A friend of ours retired at 54 with a fat pension that is about $80K a year for doing nothing.

      • Charles Vincent

        “Detroit is ONE CITY that everyone likes to pick on.”

        Its not just Detroit;

        http://www DOT governing DOT com/gov-data/municipal-cities-counties-bankruptcies-and-defaults DOT html

        Top ten reasons why Detroit is going bankrupt;

        http://www DOT washingtonpost DOT com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/07/18/detroit-just-filed-for-bankruptcy-heres-how-it-got-there/

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        The first three points of the WaPo article support my point. Declining population, low tax revenue, high unemployment. The suburbs are doing well.

        California is turning things around because Gerry Brown convinced legislators one needs revenue to operate.

      • Charles Vincent

        Yes but you cannot deny that poor management played a roll in all of them. or the unfunded liabilities in pensions etcetera.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Illlinois has its own problem with unfunded pension liabilities that no one in Springfield wants to tackle.

      • Charles Vincent

        This article illustrates what I was pointing to;

        http://www DOT freep DOT com/interactive/article/20130915/NEWS01/130801004/Detroit-Bankruptcy-history-1950-debt-pension-revenue

        This article highlights the suburbs some thriving some not;

        http://www DOT bloomberg DOT com/news/2013-07-29/detroit-bankruptcy-underscores-rift-between-city-and-its-suburbs DOT html

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        “For manufacturing this is true but we didn’t replace those jobs with another job that pays equivalent wages.”

        And whose fault is that? Not the government’s…

      • Charles Vincent

        According to your theory (and Liberal theory in general) that the government solves all problems this would be governments fault for not replacing jobs lost with equivalent paying jobs.

        In my estimation however it seems to be governments problem in that they over regulated industry causing industry to move jobs elsewhere to protect its profits This doesn’t excuse industry in my opinion they had several option available to them to protect their profits that didn’t involve moving jobs over seas.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        I know of no evidence pointing to regulation. Rather, it was looking for cheaper labor that drove industry to 3rd world countries. If you can prove regulation, one of the perennial conservative bogeymen, please do.

      • Charles Vincent

        In my state the oil and gas industry moved because the state increased regulation and taxation on them so they moved to North Dakota. Here is an article detailing why business and individual people have left California;

        http://www DOT manhattan-institute DOT org/html/cr_71.htm# DOT UkZyiD9x4Ug

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        California is doing better, not great, but better. That report is a year old; it would be interesting to have a follow-up.

        http://www DOT newyorker DOT com/online/blogs/currency/2013/08/the-california-comeback-myth.html

      • Charles Vincent

        Looking for more recent ones currently.

      • Charles Vincent

        You might want to get out a camera for this cause I am going to say something I didn’t think I would ever say.
        For once I found something Obama has said that I actually agree with, the caveat is we still have no plan to accomplish what he is talking about;

        Part I

        http://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=1cl_qwkuFPc&feature=share

        Part II

        http://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=Xe7dMs7qGTg

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        We did this in the 1960s when our parents, who grew up during the Great Depression, wanted us, their kids, to have a better life and believed education was the means.

        But now it’s almost impossible to accomplish this when conservatives are
        anti-science, anti-critical thinking, hate teachers and teacher unions
        and despise taxes. Other countries have publicly funded college educations. We don’t.

      • Charles Vincent

        Conservatives aren’t anti-science and teachers unions cause more problems than they solve Imho.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        IMHO, the opposite occurs. A lot of conservatives are hostile to climate change science. And I’d need data on teachers’ unions’ detriment to society.

      • Charles Vincent

        See Detroit; average teacher pay 73K on average national average ~56k. 47% of the population in Detroit is functionally illiterate caveat here is no conclusive proof this is union relates only implications.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        And you assume, in the midst of all that poverty, teachers are responsible for socioeconomic factors they can’t control. You can’t teach a kid who doesn’t show up for class.

      • Charles Vincent

        Not solely responsible no, but when they get paid 73k a year on average and they can’t teach people to read and write that’s a problem and people that cannot read or write are not capable or are at a serious disadvantage of helping to create economic growth.

        “You can’t teach a kid who doesn’t show up for class.”
        This implies that all 47% didn’t show up to class and neither of us can prove such hyperbole.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        A friend of mine works for the Chicago Public Schools. She says one of the biggest problems is the kids’ parents really don’t care. They figure life is going to suck and education is a waste of time.

      • Charles Vincent

        “They figure life is going to suck and education is a waste of time.”
        Why do parents Feel this way? Do they think that the quality of schooling is abhorrent? DO they just have poor parenting skills? are they Single parents that are over worked and can barely pay the bills and have no energy or time to be involved with their kids education? These questions should be asked and looked into before we say its the parents that don’t care. are there some that don’t Most likely yes, are all parents in this category NO most definitely not.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        It’s because they’ve had no hope for a long time: no jobs, no prospects, gangs running loose and kids getting killed. There are charter schools that have achieved some successes in teaching and motivating kids, but it’s an uphill battle. Hadiya Pendelton, a 15-year old student at King College prep who performed at Obama’s second inauguration, was murdered while standing under a shelter in January; two gang members have been indicted. Stuff like this is on the news here all the time.

        I object to the apparent assumption that teachers’ unions are the source of all of society’s ills. I think the truth is far more complicated.

        Here’s an interesting view: http://www DOT chicagonow DOT com/your-doubting-thomas/2012/07/what-should-black-america-do-to-stop-the-violence-in-chicago-and-other-inner-cities/

      • Charles Vincent

        “It’s because they’ve had no hope for a long time: no jobs, no prospects, gangs running loose and kids getting killed. There are charter schools that have achieved some successes in teaching and motivating kids, but it’s an uphill battle.”

        What are the fundamental factors causing this situation?

        “I object to the apparent assumption that teachers’ unions are the source of all of society’s ills. I think the truth is far more complicated.”
        I am not asserting that unions or teachers bear all the responsibility but it is an undeniable fact that there are issues that derive from teachers and their associated unions. I agree that the truth is far more complicated and the solution is even more complex than the truth of the situation.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        What are the fundamental factors causing this situation (no hope for a long time: no jobs, no prospects)?

        Systematic exclusion from the job market and opportunities. The projects were the worst idea to come out of urban renewal; it warehoused poor people in 20-story buildings in crime-ridden ares.

        Yes, truth is complicated; unions are a convenient scapegoat, but the decline of unions is one of the reasons the private sector has no economic security.

      • Charles Vincent

        “Yes, truth is complicated; unions are a convenient scapegoat, but the
        decline of unions is one of the reasons the private sector has no
        economic security.”

        Unions are only shrinking the private sector they are growing in the public sector in both white and blue collar jobs.

        http://www DOT bls DOT gov/news DOT release/union2 DOT nr0 DOT htm

        “(no hope for a long time: no jobs, no prospects)”

        These are symptoms of the root causes. Sorry in advance they are lengthy but I think there are some truths in them.

        http://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=yx6-PHKzHvM

        http://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=g9bRDNgd6E4

      • Charles Vincent

        http://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=Rls8H6MktrA

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Many problems with that:
        1. That was 1978 and things have changed in the past 35 years.
        2. The public school system is not “government schools.” Back in 1978 very few people could afford private schools. They still can’t. I am a product of those “government schools” and I’ve been a practicing physician for 30 years.
        3. Other companies hire and train people without resorting to the “minimum wage” argument.
        4. Government IS people.
        5. Welfare was reformed in the mid 1990s.
        Matthew 25:40, What you have done for the least among you, you have done for ME.

      • Charles Vincent

        it was about the premise behind the rhetoric and stats show that more money from government and more regulation from government doesn’t always work, government is a model for inefficiency how can we expect schools to run under that kind of supervision.

        and increasingly the people in government are screwing things up. Put away the bias and glean through the material for the stuff that works that’s all I am saying forget where it comes from and worry about whether or not the ideas or solutions will work.

        “Matthew 25:40, What you have done for the least among you, you have done for ME.”

        This is for people to do voluntarily not under the force of government and Charity should be anonymous and not for any recognition.

        “5. Welfare was reformed in the mid 1990s.”

        And despite being “reformed” is still worse off and it is getting worse still.

        “2. The public school system is not “government schools”

        And those schools get federal government grants and with those grant are stipulations and regulations that exert federal government control over educational material and what is and isn’t appropriate.

        ” I am a product of those “government schools” and I’ve been a practicing”

        So am I but you and i were there before the regulation by federal government took off so to speak.

        I know whats bad about the videos I, but I posted them so you could get the things that were good from them, wrangling over the bad doesn’t help find the solution to the problem it only adds to it.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        I don’t see paying taxes as using force. I rather enjoy paying taxes because of the benefits I reap from the results. Government is the great equalizer.

        Charity is insufficient.: http://www DOT ministrymatters DOT com/all/article/entry/524/charity-is-not-enough

        How is government “screwing things up?” I went to a government funded university and medical school Great ROI. My nephew is a product of the same “government school system” and he is doing quite well for himself at 25.

        “And those schools get federal government grants and with those grant are stipulations and regulations that exert federal government control over educational material and what is and isn’t appropriate.”

        The golden rule: them what has (or gives) the goal makes the rules. It is up to you to demonstrate such stipulations and regulations are an impediment. I could argue that vis a vis stem cell research under Bush. I wasn’t aware that ANY body, public or private, was in the habit of giving away money without any kind of strings. I’m betting the Gates Foundation has plenty of strings.

        I still failed to see what was “good” about the video. All I saw was a smug, self-satisfied and financially secure white guy telling everyone, “I did it without any help and so can you.” Kinda like Craig T Nelson who said, “I’ve been on food stamps and welfare. Did anyone help me out? No.” Uh, food stamps and welfare IS someone helping you out.

        http://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=yTwpBLzxe4U

        Wrangling over the bad is necessary because it’s the negative mindset that minimizes the problems and assumes there are quick, painless and cheap solutions.

      • Charles Vincent

        “How is government “screwing things up?”
        http://www DOT hermes-press DOT com/education_index.htm

        http://freebeacon DOT com/private-union-takeover-of-public-schools/

        http://famguardian DOT org/Subjects/Education/Articles/FallingGrades DOT htm

        http://theroadtoemmaus DOT org/RdLb/21PbAr/Ed/Gvt&Litrcy.htm

        http://www DOT drlwilson DOT com/Articles/school%20system DOT htm

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Don’t have time to answer them all but the Beacon article is amusing, given conservatives want to privatize the public school system so they can tell teachers what to teach (or what NOT to teach, as in questioning everything).

        What’s wrong with the MEA and how is it a PRIVATE union? So lobbying is OK as long as conservatives are behind it, but not liberals and progressives???

      • Charles Vincent

        Well I use my real name and picture, another poster here found me I am sure you can to get my email I don’t really need a bunch of trolls blowing my email up. Forward these questions to me when you find me I will then answer them. I also hate wading through a metric ton of posts to find replies.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        OK. It’s been a long day and I’ll research this weekend. I enjoy our discussions.

      • Charles Vincent

        Ditto. Yes ,yes work is beckoning me now.

      • Charles Vincent

        “I don’t see paying taxes as using force. I rather enjoy paying taxes
        because of the benefits I reap from the results.”

        This;
        http://bastiat DOT org/en/the_law DOT html

        Government is the great equalizer.

        Government is a blight not an equalizer, unless you’re involved in the one hand washes the other politics and capital cronyism.

        “I still failed to see what was “good” about the video. All I saw was a smug, self-satisfied and financially secure white guy telling everyone,”

        Well that guy was a poor child of poor immigrants from Europe(Hungary I think) he paid his way through Rutgers I believe. He also won the Nobel Prize for Economics he is one of the economists that helped congress write the first tax code(something he regretted later in life).

        “Wrangling over the bad is necessary because it’s the negative mindset that minimizes the problems and assumes there are quick, painless and
        cheap solutions.”

        Arguing over bad that everyone agrees is a bad is a waste of time and energy, and there are rarely simple solutions to complex problems nor are these solutions painless. Social Security IS a Shining example of how Solutions and not painless cause fixing the problems with it will not be easy or painless to a great many people.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Nope, government gives me protection, highways, schools, cops, food inspection, airline traffic controllers, safety regulations, building inspections, building codes, clean air and water, weekends, and, when it is working as it should, protection from crooks like Wall Street and the very rich.

        “That guy” was still WHITE. White folk are often oblivious about minorities. Black folk have been disproportionately excluded from a place at the table. Affirmative action and forced integration was needed to change some of that.

        What’s the problem with Social Security (other than Congress robbing it)? What’s the problem with Medicare? One needs to acknowledge the bad before one can start fixing what’s wrong. The GOP likes to live in the 1950s (which were never as idyllic as they believe),

      • Charles Vincent

        “What’s the problem with Social Security (other than Congress robbing
        it)? What’s the problem with Medicare? One needs to acknowledge the
        bad before one can start fixing what’s wrong.”

        Congress is robbing them hello….

        “highways, schools, cops, food inspection, airline traffic controllers, safety regulations, building inspections, building codes, clean air and water, weekends,”

        People provide these not government you act as if government can solve all the woes of society that is incorrect. People solve problems not government.

        Highways come from Excise taxes on gasoline Federal government funds less than 1/3 of the total cost the res is funded by the state. This applies to schools, Police food inspection building inspections building codes are all provided by local or state controlled employees.

        The only thing feds do is write bullshit regulations, for example did you know that the ACA in its first installment of regulations contains 20,000 pages for insurers and consumers to abide by. Yes you read that right 20k and there are more to come. Federal government law code is 186,000 pages and grows at 2-5k every year and the average citizen commits 3 felonies every day with out even knowing it that’s you and I.

        “”That guy” was still WHITE. White folk are often oblivious about minorities. Black folk have been disproportionately excluded from a place at the table. Affirmative action and forced integration was needed to change some of that.”

        This;

        http://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=b4Ubp7U9Dq4

        http://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=uCl6v-sfjxY

        http://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=L5BMGYkVdX8

        http://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=AU4QyOHb9B0

        http://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=2GklCBvS-eI

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Since when has government ever been run by inanimate beings? Government is made up of people. Federal, state, local. All are government and all are people.

        Give me an instance where government PERSONALLY inconveniences you. I can’t. Even the TSA doesn’t bother me and I fly quite a bit.

        Some of those regulations save you life. I assume you are old enough to remember when the Cuyahoga River caught fire. That’s why we have an EPA.

        And if you’ve read the ACA, as I tried, you’d understand it was written by lawyers for lawyers. Abysmally boring and obtuse. The oft-mentioned “death panel” section was an amendment to a specific section of the Social Security Act, but one had to take a lot of time to sort it out.

      • Charles Vincent

        I have also bookmarked your link and will peruse it later when time allows. I also found this interesting maybe you will as well particularly the role of government and subidies;

        http://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=FOMI0ORGH44

      • Charles Vincent

        http://frontpagemag DOT com/2012/dgreenfield/detroit-teachers-w71000-salaries-leave-work-to-protest-while-only-7-percent-of-their-students-can-read/

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Uh, you might want to read this one: http://www DOT forwardprogressives DOT com/conservative-kansas-group-suing-to-remove-science-from-schools-claims-science-is-unconstitutional/

      • Charles Vincent

        I have, and that group is giving real conservatives a bad name. I have no sympathy for people like that I do however think that both creationism and hard science should be available to learn on a by choice basis if that makes sense. In my opinion divisiveness is a/the root cause of bigotry.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        I think science belongs in school and Creationism belongs in church. I doubt any church would want evolution taught in their Sunday Schools. Respect the boundaries and we’ll all be fine.

      • Charles Vincent

        To me its about tolerance you don’t believe in god fine great but don’t force that view on others. No one would force students to take the classes it would be up to each individual. Sort of like reciting the pledge of allegiance it should happen for those that wish to recite it, and those that don’t can opt out. Likewise if they had a class on Buddhism/Hinduism/Taoism let them teach it. Why not allow it to be taught on a similar basis. IMHO exposure to a variety of things, ideals, perspectives etc… would go a long way to solving hate and bigotry.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        LIkewise, if you believe in God, don’t force it on others. I believe in both God and science. A class on a Christianity (or any other religion) isn’t the same as teaching Creationism. Creationism doesn’t belong in public schools being passed off as “alternative science.” Science has rigorous principles.

      • Charles Vincent

        I think I agree on these points except that schools teach Darwinism which is arguably the opposite of Creationism. Do I believe in evolution inside a species yes look at the people around you, do I think we evolved from monkeys NO.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Yeah, I think we evolved from monkeys, given some of the people I’ve known in my life (ever see frat boys on a Friday night?). And some people call children “yard apes.” We share about 98.8% of the same DNA and millions of years is hard for me to fathom. I think it’s possible and likely, but I’m open to more information.

        Schools can teach creationism as soon as we can teach Darwinism in Sunday School.

      • Charles Vincent

        I fail to see how we lost one complete pair of Chromosomes considering simians have 24 pairs and humans have 23 pairs.

        “Schools can teach creationism as soon as we can teach Darwinism in Sunday School.”
        You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Minimum wage video is erroneous. McDonald’s makes billions in profit and burger flippers make about 10 burgers a minute during lunch hour. The arguments against the minimum wage have been made before and have been proven wrong.

        Check this one out: http://thinkprogress DOT org/economy/2013/08/30/2556301/burrito-chain-pays-entry-level-workers-10-hour-pay/ This guy pays an average of $10. Take care of your employees and turnover is far less.

        Or this one: http://thinkprogress DOT org/economy/2012/06/20/503112/studies-increasing-the-minimum-wage-during-times-of-high-unemployment-doesnt-hurt-job-growth/

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        This is the only solution proven to work.

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        duhhhhh….America has no money to invest, that’s why you have to raise the debt limit every few months.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        You really don’t understand how this works, do you?

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        Yes I know how kaynesian economics works…..you think you can borrow your way out of debt. It doesn’t work. You in debt $15 TRILLION and you think by borrowing more you can fix the problem. It didn’t work in Europe and it doesn’t work in the US.

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        Obama has done nothing to fix the economy. The government can not even create jobs without putting the country further in debt…..and with a record debt of $15 TRILLION…..it won’t be long before the IMF and World bank force America to pay it’s bills……this is called austerity…and it’s not nice for the people who owe the money.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Let’s see, Bush doubled the debt invading Iraq and Afghanistan, cutting taxes twice instead of funding the wars the old fashioned way by raising taxes; created an unfunded Medicare drug benefit that largely benefited the pharmaceutical industry and specifically prohibited price negotiations, and looked the other way while Wall Street got into the subprime market hoping to make money because interest rates were near zero. Then he started bailing out Wall Street with taxpayer money. And BUSH was the first one to give money to the auto industry.

        Obama spent money getting us out of the recession, paying for the war debt Bush kept off the books and we have a 7.3% unemployment rate instead of a 10% unemployment rate. Even Forbes admitted, “Yep, Obama’s a Big Spender…Just Like His Predecessors.” (09/03/12)

        So, it depends for what one is spending the money.

      • PJay

        And WTH is the reason you’re on this site?
        Oh please Guy_in_Kingston, please tell us your opinions on world affairs . . . Said no one in Canada EVER!

      • Chomper Lomper Tawee

        You’re still clueless, I see.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Soooo, if Canadian health care is so bad, move to the US.

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        When people get sick they often DO have to travel to the US….it’s only a 15 minute drive. There are NO OTHER ADVANTAGES to living in the US though. You’re economy is worse off…..the jobs prospects in the US are worse and the ever expanding government has gotten to be a problem…..combined with a $15 TRILLION dollar debt. 20 years ago….America looked good to Canadianss but those days are long gone.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        No, I want YOU to move here and be subject to our health care system. That should wipe the smirk off your face.

        And I’m still not sure why everyone is so bothered by our debt when they ignored it during Bush’s administration.

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        It’s increased by 1/3 since Bush…..and your raising the debt limit AGAIN…..LOL

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        The debt ceiling, idiot, has to do with paying the bills already incurred, It has nothing to do with additional spending. Try educating yourself… http://www DOT nytimes DOTcom/2011/07/28/us/politics/28default.html?ref=nationaldebtus&_r=0

        And there was never an argument about raising the debt ceiling until Obama was elected. And Moody’s says there will be hell to pay if Congress DOESN’T raise the debt ceiling. http://blogs DOT wsj DOT com/moneybeat/2013/09/24/moodys-failure-to-raise-debt-ceiling-would-roil-markets/

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        It was not an issue in the past for a reason…..YOU WERE NEVER THIS FAR IN DEBT IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF AMERICA…….you now have to raise the debt ceiling just to pay the interest on what you already owe.
        In the past you never owed $15 TRILLION and had another $55 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities……America has never been so far in the hole. $5 TRILLION of that debt has occured in just the last 5 years.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        And again, SO? We’ve always been in debt, going back to George Washington. And you have to look at the debt in relation to GDP, which was 120% during WWII, 80% in 1950, 60% in 1990 and 70% in 2008. We’re now at about 103%.

        So what do you think we’re spending all that money on? Give it a shot.

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        and an ever shrinking economy.

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        I understand how it works…..America is SO FAR in debt that it can not even make the interest payments anymore and has to raise the debt limit everytime it’s due….just to keep from collapsing. Until the World bank and IMF force America into austerity and force them to pay the bills they have accumulated. Just like Spain, and France….when that happens American lose everything, government workers, social programs cuts to every agency and sector….is this what you really want? That’s what your doing by not paying your bills now.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Austerity worked really well for Greece and the UK, eh?

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        yes it’s helping.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Keep telling yourself that while you read this: http://topics DOT nytimes DOTcom/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/greece/index.html

        “ATHENS — The perfect political storm for violent extremism has descended on Greece. It consists of national humiliation, economic disaster, high immigration, political division and international tutelage. Look no further than Weimar Germany to understand its ingredients.

        In the subdued streets of the Greek capital, where a vague menace hangs like a pall, tempers are frayed. The economy is turning slowly, after draconian cuts and two bailouts totaling €240 billion,but not enough yet to be felt. The cry of the extreme right resounds:
        We, the fathers of civilization, have been sold out by the international loan sharks!

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        Yes….Weimar Germany fell by raising the debt over and over just like America is doing now. The whole purpose of Austerity is creditors put government on a budget….and force them (the people) to pay their bills. It’s not supposed to be nice for the people who owe the money. The IMF and World bank are going to have to do the same to the US.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        You DO realize we recovered a lot faster because we DIDN’T try the austerity route. And I wasn’t aware the IMF was giving us money.

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        YOU HAVE NOT RECOVERED…..you’re sinking….and fater than at any time in history. When you go too far in debt the IMF and world bank pays creditors and then forces countries into austerity. They’re the bill collectors .

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Nope, economy is much better. Can’t say the same about Europe. And WTF do you care? You’re in Canada.

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        In what kinda of dream world dod you live in there the economy is better? The Fed is printing $85 BILLION dollars out of thin air every MONTH just to keep the country from collapse…..and in October another debt interest payment is do. In order to make the interest payment America has to raise the debt limint AGAIN in October just to make the minimum payment.
        7 out of 10 new jobs are part-time minimum wage McJobs. If you think the econoomy is better than you have either been lied to, or you’re insane.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        “…By the Treasury Department’s count, Congress has acted 78 times since 1960 to raise, extend or alter the definition of the debt limit — 49 times under Republican presidents, and 29 times under Democratic presidents. The Obama administration has taken pains to note that President Ronald Reagan, a hero to many Republicans in Congress, raised the debt limit. In a letter on the debt ceiling last month to Republicans in the Senate, Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner quoted a letter Mr. Reagan wrote a generation ago, urging Congress to increase the debt limit. “The full consequences of a default — or even the serious prospect of default — by the United States are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate,” he quoted Mr. Reagan as writing. “Denigration of the full faith and credit of the United States would have substantial effects on the domestic financial markets and on the value of the dollar in exchange markets. The Nation can ill afford to allow such a result.”

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        Yes….it has been raisedmany times in the past…..what is the difference now? THE DEFFERENCE IS AMERICA HAS NEVER BEEN SO FAR IN DEBT IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF AMERICA……that’s the difference.

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        Yes…..I know how many times it has been raised……but the debt has NEVER BEEN $15 TRILLION IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF AMERICA…..that’s the difference.

    • Guy_in_Kingston

      Yet…America has the worlds BEST healthcare. Socialized medicine does not work….not in England….not in Canada. It’s a failure.

      • PJay

        We have the world’s best and most expensive healthcare BUT millions of American citizens do not have access to it! So, what’s your point again?

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        So your going to destroy it to accomodate the non-productive, non-contributors? Yup…..that’s communism at it’s worst.

      • fdsa

        we’re not destroying it. We’re making it more accessible.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Kingston is an idiot and a hypocrite.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        80% of the uninsured work or live in a household with someone who works. Only 60% of employers offer benefits. Part-timers aren’t eligible for benefits and employers have been avoiding providing bennies for a couple of decades by hiring part timers. People with pre-existing conditions either couldn’t afford the premiums (which could be $1200-2000/month) or no one would insure them at any price.

        You don’t think they work because you are a moron.

      • Laura Marshall

        Back to your bridge, troll.

      • Mark Gruben

        It’s not quite true that America has the world’s best health care. America has the best available health care, but not everyone is able to afford the best; many cannot afford even the most basic first aid, let alone preventative health care. So called “socialized medicine” can and does work in places all over the world, but again, not for every person and not for every circumstance. And your calling something a failure hardly means that it is, in fact, a failure. By what criteria have you become the authority on what is “the best” or “a failure”?

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        I live in Canada…..that’s how I know.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        Yeah, and all the Canadians I’ve talked to would NEVER trade their system for ours. The only ones who seem to whine about it are people from Toronto and the rest of Canada thinks they are whiners.

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        Are the other Canadians you talk to on communist sites like this one? I assume not. Communists think the same no matter where they live….did those people tell you that Canada has some of the longest wait times in the entire world. Did they tell you that healthcare is rationed by limiting the number of doctors. Did they tell you that many have to mortgage their homes to see care in other countries….Probably not.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        No, I actually talk to them by email and in person. Do you know that if you have no insurance in the US, you either don’t get care or go to the ER for an interminable wait? Did you know the US has rationed health care by ability to pay for decades? Did you know that US health care costs account for about 75% of personal bankruptcies?…Probably not.

      • suburbancuurmudgeon

        So why haven’t the people in the UK or Canada replaced their systems?

      • Guy_in_Kingston

        Once you give control to a government you never get it back. The people in Canada and the UK have no control over their healthcare anymore. Only the free market allows patients to control their options. You’re about to lose control to. We have a saying in Canada, “Good healthcare as long as you never get sick.” You will find the ONLY people who think good things about the healthcare are people that have never been sick. You don’t realize how bad it is until you get cancer and are told you will have to wait months to see a specialist.

    • suburbancuurmudgeon

      The Majority don’t like the ACA when you call it Obamacare. When you refer to it as ACA or something else, or list the benefits (no lifetime caps, no refusal for pre-existing conditions, allowing your unemployed kids to stay on your insurance until 26, making insurance companies use at least 80% of premiums for health care), then they like it.

  • Darrell West

    Enough IS Enough Lets Clean House in 2014 we all have Enough we are sick of it.

    • PJay

      Agree. Get rid of those who are interested in playing junior high games. Replace them with those who will represent the people and actually do their job! They just don’t get it. Either they ignore the polls regarding approval ratings of Congress, or they’re in denial. You’re right. People are sick, sick, sick of the stupidity of politicians playing games with our health care and spending our money. It’s cost almost $60 million for the 42 times they’ve tried to repeal the affordable health care act. We need term limits for Congress. Our representatives should not be lifetime politicians. They should be community members who represent us and return to their normal lives after they serve their term.

  • Guy_in_Kingston

    Obama is definitely the first Sissy President. Who would have thought the leader of a country would pout like a little girl. It’s pretty bad when Putin has to show him how a leader should act. Perhaps he can get Angela Merkel to show him how a man is supposed to act.

    • fdsa

      A “sissy president” would role over to republican demands that Americans rejected last election.

    • suburbancuurmudgeon

      And a sissy president would have invaded the wrong country looking for nonexistent WMDs. What did you want Obama to do? Attack Syria? Who in Syria? Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. That worked out SO well in Afghanistan when the Soviets invaded. Yesterday’s mujahadeen became today’s Taliban.

  • Mark Gruben

    It strikes me that any bill that defunds Obamacare is akin to a bill that defunds, for example, enforcement of the 55 mph speed limit on the nation’s highways. Both are Federally-based laws, passed by Congress and signed by the president at the time, and whether or not they are “popular” is totally beside the point! We have many laws that are not especially popular, but WE DON’T DEFUND THEM! I would think that Congress does not have the power to strip funding from any Federal law, no matter how popular, or unpopular, that law may be.

    • suburbancuurmudgeon

      Funny, it was passed by Congress but now some in Congress want to pretend it wasn’t.