Republicans Don’t Have to Worry About Winning Over Voters, They’re Just Going to Rig Elections

John BoehnerGerrymandering, new restrictive voter ID laws, mythical voter fraud fear mongering—I’m sick to death of all of it.  The outrage over this Republican attempt to rig elections that’s going on all across this country isn’t nearly loud enough.  This should be the headline every single night on every single news channel, website and blog.

Republicans aren’t trying to “win” elections, they’re trying to rig elections—period.

And don’t even give me this rhetoric about voter fraud.  Actual cases of voter fraud have been so rare you’re far more likely to be struck by lightning than witnessing voter fraud.

And this isn’t about requiring an ID to vote.  That’s total bullcrap and they know it.  If a valid ID is the answer to this non-existent issue of voter fraud, then why hasn’t the requirement to have a valid ID proving an individual is 21 years of age put an end to underage drinking?

Simple.  Because if someone wants to break a law, they will.  A fake ID isn’t hard to obtain and if someone is hell bent on fraudulent voting, they’re going to vote fraudulently.

But this has nothing to do with having an ID to prove a valid vote.  If it was, that’s all these laws would contain—but they don’t.

Inside many of these laws are provisions which make the requirements to vote tougher.  Measures which restrict voting dates and times.  Cuts in funding which force the closure of DMV’s (you know, the offices through which most people obtain a valid ID) which make it harder for people to get a valid ID.

Then there are the laws which change residency requirements so many college students are unable to vote, because these laws require an individual to maintain a residence of at least 12 months.  Something many students don’t do due to the fact they live at school when class is in session and back at home when it’s not.

Oh, then there are the laws which say a state-issued student ID isn’t valid for voting.  Tell me, in what alternate reality could that possibly make any sense whatsoever?

It’s a clear strategy to prevent many college students from being able to vote.  And who do college students tend to vote for much more often?  Oh, that’s right, Democrats.

Then there’s the whole issue of it being illegal to charge a poll tax for residents to vote.

Now I can hear the Republican response already, “But you can get ID’s for free!”  No—not really.

Sure, some states offer a free ID for individuals that fall below a certain income bracket, but free isn’t free—they’re still paid for by taxpayers.  Not only that, but what if some of those individuals don’t have a copy of their birth certificate?  Well, that does cost money.

And it’s not always easy to get to an office to obtain a copy of a birth certificate.  In some counties there’s only one location for an entire county.  Think of a rural county where someone doesn’t own a car, they have no public transportation system where someone lives some forty or fifty miles from the nearest office to obtain a birth certificate.  How are they supposed to get one?

Voting sites are often within a couple of miles, even in rural areas.  But DMV’s and offices to obtain a birth certificate are often must less accessible.

So there’s no circumstance where a prospective voter, who lacks a birth certificate and an ID, wouldn’t be required in some way to pay to obtain the right to vote.

And that is a poll tax—which is illegal.

It doesn’t even matter how much money someone makes, if they have to pay for an ID (with an ID being required to vote) that is still charging someone for their right to vote.  The level of individual income has no bearing on laws.  If anyone is in anyway charged in any manner prior to being given the right to vote—that is a poll tax

Then there’s the out of control gerrymandering Republicans have been doing for years.  You know, the gerrymandering similar to that being done in Texas.  A state that recently admitted that they were specifically redrawing districts to weaken the power of Democrats in Texas.

You see, what Republicans like to do is take a district which usually votes for Democrats, split it up, pair it off with conservative-leaning districts then create 2 (or more) conservative-leaning congressional districts instead of one liberal-leaning one.

It’s how Democrats won the popular vote in Congress this past November by over one million total votes yet still don’t control the House of Representatives.

Get it now?  Republicans don’t need to win elections—they’ll just rig them.  They’ll simply redraw districts to blatantly favor conservative voters or pass voting laws which directly target the voting patterns of specific demographics which often don’t vote for Republicans—or both.

It’s a deliberate attempt by Republicans to undermine our voting process under the guise of “fighting rampant voter fraud.”

Except, there’s absolutely no evidence of any “rampant voter fraud.”  A fact that they’re well aware of, they just simply don’t care.  Anyone who really thinks these laws are about fighting non-existent voter fraud is either an idiot or simply in denial.  Because Republicans couldn’t be more obvious about what they’re trying to do—and that’s rig elections.

Because conservatives are quickly realizing they’re soon not going to be able to actually win them fair and square.

Allen Clifton

Allen Clifton is a native Texan who now lives in the Austin area. He has a degree in Political Science from Sam Houston State University. Allen is a co-founder of Forward Progressives and creator of the popular Right Off A Cliff column and Facebook page. Be sure to follow Allen on Twitter and Facebook, and subscribe to his channel on YouTube as well.

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  • guest

    If you all are SO WORRIED and TRULY believe that the elections are going to be rigged(by someone other than the dems themselves), then WHY do you block voter ID all the time? Oh, that’s right, then your greedy brainwashed dependents can only vote ONCE.

    • Gary Clure

      Your “argument” makes no sense. Can you truly say with a straight face that there is a problem with voter fraud in elections? No, you can’t. Tell me why a student shouldn’t be able to use his student ID to vote.

      • levi

        Because it does not prove citizenship! Remember, Obama had a student ID as well! Remember the one that he got on a foreign student visa? Why do dems automatically point the finger at Republicans even when your hands have the red dripping from them?

      • Levi. We are attempting to protect our Democracy from racist mutants like you.

      • Chomper Lomper Tawee

        Hey hey hey That’s offensive to mutants. LOL

      • Justin Williams

        John Gamboa, I have never heard a more racist comment than saying that any law that only allows those legally entitled to vote being racist. That means minorities cannot figure out how to obtain proof of citizenship? Really, you believe they are that stupid? How many minorities, even ones here illegally have drivers license’s? Not too stupid to obtain these government issued documents. I do not believe a law that provides for any type of documentation is by nature racial.

        As far as voter fraud, is there someone here with the ability to read history or speak to someone still alive who knows history? Lyndon Johnson became president because of voter fraud in his first statewide election in Texas when he won when a ballot box with what later turned out to be mostly ‘dead” voters turned up in Jim Wells county in /south Texas just before Coke Stevenson was declared the winner of the election. John F. Kennedy would almost, almost there is some disagreement though most scholars are on the side that Kennedy would have lost, certainly not have won the 1960 election if not for Mayor Richard Daly’s voter fraud in Chicago. South Texas and south Louisiana are notorious examples of places where voter fraud has become almost a way of life. Multiple votings is common..

        In the 1880’s-1900’s the Republicans had illegal voters in New York and Boston that won elections and kept corrupt politicians in office.

        Honest persons on either side should want only those legally entitled to vote to be able to decide elections. some people do not understand they are not entitled to vote because they are NOT citizens.

        It has been a long time since elections were about honesty, they are about power, taxes, big money and pay-offs.

      • Neptunus Rex

        Try to be a little more silly and incoherent, Levi. I’m certain that you can do it.

      • Jeremy Elstein

        levi, you are a moron. rather than trying to fix what’s wrong, you and your party would rather play games insisting the president isn’t an American, wasn’t born American, etc. he was born in the united states, raised in the united states, worked his entire career in the united states, at what point will you wake up and realize your conspiracy theories are not only wrong, but pointless?

      • Dianne Hornick

        You are a special kind of stupid…aren’t you?

      • Jo Hargis

        And what…a gun license does? Give me a break! You and “Guest” are the epitome of the republican stupidity that is crushing this country’s democratic process. Why are you acting so ignorant? The GOP doesn’t even TRY to hide what they’re doing anymore! And you’re going to defend them?

      • Daddycool67

        You’re going down Levi!

      • Maggie Alcantara

        hell they all are its time we “STAND OUR GROUND” with them!!!

      • Chomper Lomper Tawee

        So far levi is a racist mutant– incoherent moron–special kind of stupid–ignorant twat. LMAO

      • Michael Brown

        He’s gonna have the mother of all temper tantrums on November 9, 2016 after Hillary is elected our first female president.

      • Robert Cook

        Your argument is based on a piece of misinformation – when you go to college, you have to prove your place of residence, i.e., where you’re from. In most students cases, you have to provide a social security number (which, while it can be fake, odds are it isn’t), as well as tax returns (if you seek any financial aid to attend). Furthermore, most of them need to see your drivers license or non-driver ids… so, since that’s pretty much the same stuff the DMV requires to issue you a state sponsored id, it would make no sense to block their use, save for party purposes.

        Additionally, tho, colleges could help by setting their ID guidelines along the same as that state’s, so they would then qualify, tho that would cost money and take time to implement. Could be done before 2016.. but not 2014, meaning the GOP would get one election rigged.

      • Jason

        Obama is a citizen, so your point is moot.

      • Maggie Alcantara

        because republicans are ignorant fools who draw attention to them selves by saying stupid shit

      • A Concerned Citizen

        Citizenship is verified during the registration process. There no need to prove citizenship at the polls. Are you people all completely ignorant as to how voting works?

      • Erika Frensley

        Concerned Citizen is right. When you register to vote, your information is verified and if you are determined to be a citizen, you are issued a voter registration card, and your name is entered onto the voting rolls. When you actually vote, all you need is proof of identity, since you’ve already registered to vote.

      • Michael Brown

        Riddle me this, levi: why is it when cases of voter fraud are caught, the persons responsible are always Republican? We’ll wait…

      • Phil

        Well that would make sense except the purpose of an ID is to prove identity not citizenship. In my state you have to prove citizenship to REGISTER then you have to have photo ID to vote. But you cannot use a student ID, which is issued by an arm of the state, and which takes far more paperwork to qualify for than any registration process…

        SO let’s be clear: that is simply a series of barriers erected to make it harder and harder for actual citizens who actually reside in this state to be able to vote. And as to voter fraud when you look for real reports showing the scope of the problem it is nearly nonexistent. Most fraud that has been found was inadvertent, people who didn’t know the law or forgot they were registered somewhere else.

    • Jason

      Voter ID is a restriction on the right to vote that the Constitution prohibits. Get used to lawsuits in your area taking up your taxpayer dollars.

      • Charles Vincent

        It’s not a restriction to require a voter to prove they are a legal resident in the town/district/state, that they are attempting to vote in. It also isn’t a poll tax because every one that currently votes needs to produce ID to vote. Poll taxes were used to discourage minority groups or classes of society from voting, and since we all need to have I’d to vote it is a poor conclusion that ID to vote is a poll tax.

      • Phil

        And again Charles, your information isn’t accurate. I don’t think anyone needed a voter ID for the first 200 of our existence. And most elections were fair. And when investigations are made, the incidence or real voter fraud is infinitesimal. In the past people register to vote and swear they are the person named and are citizens. Usually they had to prove residence using a utility bill or some other mailed statement. This is because it should be simple to do. People who rail on about ID don’t understand that poor people rarely have cars so no driver licenses; that in Texas many entire counties don’t even have a DMV office, that getting a birth certificate and traveling and paying for a legal ID can be prohibitively expensive and involve literally DAYS on a bus going from office to office to get the documents and then the ID. And it happens that most DMV offices aren’t open at night, when working people can go. And the honest summary of all this is: Republicans know that by forcing more and more ID requirement and eliminating Student ID for example, they can DISQUALIFY people who are entitled to vote, erect barriers (such as the poll tax and literacy tests were) to prevent them to vote precisely because those people are inclined to vote against them.

      • Charles Vincent

        Your whole post is based on a false premise. First of all you had to be 21 and a land owner to vote when this country began they didn’t allow women or paupers to vote. Secondly every time I vote I am asked to show ID to prove I am a legal resident in my town/county/state in order to vote.

        “Republicans know that by forcing more and more ID requirement and eliminating Student ID for example, they can DISQUALIFY people who are entitled to vote, erect barriers (such as the poll tax and literacy tests were) to prevent them to vote precisely because those people are inclined to vote against them.”

        An ID is already required to vote even with out the law.
        Students that attend college in a different state shouldn’t be voting in any place but the state in which they claim legal residency. An ID isn’t a poll tax an nowhere in the proposed law does it mention imposing “poll tax or literacy test”.
        And there are absolutely no studies showing how people vote or if they would vote democrat. Please read some bastiat he covered this in The Law.

  • Timothy Roesch

    As a poll watcher I have seen MULTIPLE incidences of voter fraud. Liberals will always accuse you of the wrongs they commit.

    • Palto

      Specific instances and names please.

    • Gary Clure

      Funny, I’ve probably seen a handful of these instances in the news, and ONE prosecution. And don’t blame the “mainstream media”

    • Daniel Lincoln

      Oh we’re sure you have Tim, MULTIPLE times and you’re not trolling us at all.

    • Jeremy Elstein

      the only voter fraud I have ever seen in the news was about the Romney administration trying to hack the polling machines last election…..funny.

      • strayaway

        Had you been following the news, the IRS was used to snoop on the Romney campaign and information so gained was then used against the Romney campaign. The IRS also tied up Republican leaning groups so they couldn’t participate effectively in the 2012 campaign. In a close election, that might have tilted some elections. Talk about police state voter fraud. The marching orders for this massive vote fraud came from someone in the White House.

      • operagirl

        The IRS looked with special scrutiny at *all* political (501(C)4) groups; tea party was one titular phrase they looked for, progressive was another. Please learn a few basic research skills.

      • strayaway

        “Of the 14 applications that had the terms “progress” or “progressive” in their names between May 2010 and May 2012, none received additional scrutiny for being potential political cases and only 30 percent were processed as potential political cases.” So including the three left wing groups that were scrutinized, 25% of the 300 scrutinized groups seeking non-profit status were affiliated with right-wing causes. That works out to 3 left wing groups vs. 75 right wing groups not including breaking into and using Romney’s private information against Romney for campaign purposes.

        Nice try defending Obama (progressive?) police state but 3 is a pittance relative to 75 except maybe to police state propagandists. If you want to look at campaign fraud in 2012, the White House was Fraud Central.

    • Crysta

      Ironically, MOST of the cases of actual voter fraud, are done by REPUBLICANS! A few of them being “look, I did it! If an idiot like me can do it, think how many other republican idiots can do it it!”

    • Pipercat

      Glad I read this on the internet, now I know it’s true!

    • Daddycool67

      Why didn’t you do something about it?

      You could’ve been famous!

    • Jason

      Every case of voter fraud ever was committed by conservatives.

      See, I can make things up, too.

    • Erika Frensley

      Then why didn’t you report it? That’s your duty as a poll watcher – to watch the process and make sure any problems or irregularities are dealt with or reported. Either you’re a very bad poll watcher, or a liar.

  • Timothy Roesch

    Progressivism is nothing more than slow, steady socialism and socialists can not stand freedom. Forward Progressives means you are heading to where history shows us such persons always head: mass graves.

    • Gary Clure

      Mass graves and Socialism? Hardly. Just trying to drag the country into the 21st century, not the 1950s where Tea-baggers want to devolve to.

    • vwbtl99

      Wow! Talking about ignorance. Obviously you don’t know the meaning of socialism. England, Germany, France, etc are all socialist democratic countries and they have all the same freedoms we have here.

      • Wayne Bassett

        Being and Englishman, who has lived in the states and is married to a beautiful American woman, I concur with your statement, Vwbtl99. Tony Blair was the leader of the labour party, a socialist party, its theme song being “Keep the red flag flying”

      • Daniel Lewis

        And they haven’t started any wars since socialism took root!

    • Daniel Lincoln

      Congratulations Timothy for reading an article about democracy and using it as the basis for a hyperbolic rant about socialism. Time to change the channel, you’re officially a Fox News tool!

    • Daniel Lewis

      So how did millions of Native Americans die? Africans in slave ships, how did they die? Immigrants in coal mines and factory disasters, how did they die? Mexicans in the Southwest, how did they die? Women who died in childbirth? Children who died from having common diseases? Did Socialism kill these people— NO! Profit motive did. When is the last time western Europe started a war? When? Before socialism took root.

      • Phil

        THANK YOU Daniel, that is an outstanding response!

    • Denialawareness

      Timothy, it appears that you believe ‘socialism’ to be a big scary monster, but in my academic research of socialism, I didn’t ever see anything equating socialism with the negation of ‘freedom’. So maybe you could elaborate on what you mean by ‘freedom.’

      • Chomper Lomper Tawee

        He means the freedom to pick his nose — I’m Sorry, I Couldn’t Resist.

    • Jason

      Our nation has been socialist in many ways since its inception. The first vaccines were forced on the populace as a test by the government, regardless of who they killed.

      The founding fathers knew better than to let ingrates like you stop them.

    • Chomper Lomper Tawee

      You should just stop, you sound like an idiot.

  • Puck D-S

    An ID is required to buy a bottle of gin, pack of menthol ciggys or cash a welfare check. The democratic voters ALREADY have voter IDs. With the fast track to decriminalization, their voter base will expand. What are the democrats worried about??? They’ve already bought the next election. Hail Hitlery Clinton.

    • Gary Clure

      Bought the next election? That’s the GOP strategy. Nice touch with the “Hitlery” thing. You make that up yourself, or did you steal it from Hannity or Rush? Making comparisons to Hitler automatically makes your argument invalid.

    • Neptunus Rex

      Sorry, Puck DS, there was just the one Hitler; he was unique!

    • Jeremy Elstein

      democrats didn’t need to buy Hillary’s reign, fox news made it very clear that they want her to be president by devoting 40% of their programming to slandering her.

    • Daddycool67

      So you’ve reduced the importance of our democratic voting process to the same level as buying booze and cigarettes.

      How “patrioitic” of you!

    • Daniel Lewis

      Menthol cigarettes? Why don’t you say watermelon or fried chicken? Damn closet racists.

    • Jason

      An ID is not required to buy a gun at a gun show. When are you going to start calling out for that?

      What are you worried about? In the face of no problem being there already, why are you so concerned about restricting it for next time?

    • Maggie Alcantara

      that’s right Hilary will be our next president wanna know why???? BECAUSE WE ARE SICK AND TIRED OF REPUBLICANS IGNORANCE and soon you will see the day when there won’t be a single republican in office if ya’ll were smart and actually thought about what you say before ya’ll say it then we wouldn’t hate you as much but you guys keep opening your mouths and keep sticking you foot in it, our country is changing and we do not need ignorant bible humping racist bigots running it

    • Erika Frensley

      You know, all voters already have gov’t issued IDs – it’s called your voter registration card. THat should be the only ID that you actually need to vote. The push to specifically detailed photo IDs is simply a way to make voting more difficult, and cut down the number of voters in the state. The fact that it does concentrate on women, the elderly, and minorities is a plus to the idiots desperately clinging on to their cliff of power.

    • Michael Brown

      Puck D-S (actually, that should be “B-S”): Your not-very-clever references to menthol cigs, welfare check and Hitler mark you as just another garden-variety racist. Your remark that democratic (spelled with a small “d” indicates voters who reject the dictatorial, Republican political view) voters already have IDs and thus will expand the voter base marks you as ignorant. And your assertion that Democrats (with a big “D” this time) have “already bought the next election” marks you as a tool of the Republican party. In short, you’re just another stupid Teabagger of the sort bent on destroying this country and everything it represents. Just stick to what your type does best: getting drunk in the pigsty.

      • Nik DeWitt

        I understand his failure to capitalize Democrat as I have been accused of the same thing when I fail to capitalize republiCON. I have grown so sick of the republiCON’s lies, that I have lost all respect for them and refuse to show them any respect by capitalizing any of them. I think puck’s name is entirely appropriate. We all know what a puck is and the d-s probably stands for dumb shit.

  • Denialawareness

    Gee, I thought that democracy – you know, that dogma that we are spending trillions to implement all over the world – was about respecting the voice of the majority of citizens as determined by a fair vote. Seems that Republicans think it’s about lying, cheating, bending the rules, and using unwarranted power to force everyone to the minority’s way of thinking – which benefits only a few.

    • Daddycool67

      It’s not even that.
      They don’t really care if everybody thinks the same way they think.
      They already know that most people DON’T.

      This is all part of their desperate attempt to hold on to power, so that they can eliminate the US government. Or at least diminish the government to a mere whimper. Because they see the US govt. as the only obstacle between them and their “god given right” to have it ALL.

      • yep. that sums it up pretty well. greed.

      • Denialawareness

        I agree! And Repubs are in the process of disempowering the government while ranting about how dysfunctional it is.

    • Maggie Alcantara

      actually denial hard truth is that the minority’s are becoming the majorities

    • Charles Vincent

      We are not a democracy we are a republic there is a difference. Rome was a democracy and democracies do not protect the minority they inflict tyranny on them. Which is what you’re promoting in your post.

      • Denialawareness

        If you are talking to me, no I am not promoting tyranny! And what I SAID was that “I thought democracy… was about respecting the voice of the majority…” If you believe otherwise, that is your right. I am saying what I believe – which is MY right. You seem to be issuing some sort of “this is the way it is” statement rather than (more accurately) framing it as only your view.

      • Charles Vincent

        The minority never forces anything in a true democracy your premise is false. Yes I am talking to you, the majority has no right to impose anything on the minority as long as they are not infringing one anyone’s liberties.

      • Denialawareness

        Uh…. I don’t think you and I are on the same wavelength. Yes, the minority is not supposed to be able to force anything. THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE ARTICLE! Because the Republicans are the minority, they are rigging the system in their own favour because otherwise they could never win – democratically!! Also, could you please read your last sentence and re-write it so that it makes sense. We all make typographical errors; no big deal. It’s just that I’m not sure what you mean since it is a double negative. Also I think you mean ‘on anyone’s liberties’ and not ‘one anyone’s liberties,’ right?

      • Charles Vincent

        The republicans aren’t rigging anything. My last sentence was more general in nature. And yes I meant on not one stupid iPad auto suggest.

      • Denialawareness

        Okay, so you didn’t read the article. Actually, you could just read the headline.

      • Charles Vincent

        No I read the article and the republicans aren’t rigging anything they are attempting to codify something that was already happening.

      • Denialawareness

        Let’s agree to disagree. What do you say?

      • Charles Vincent

        Sounds equitable to me.

      • casual observor

        I love that this thread ended up this way! No one calling anyone a “Nazi” or some other derogatory name!!! Thank you both!!!

      • Charles Vincent

        unfortunatly it rarely ends that way. I am not here to call people names I am here to debate.

      • Aloanstar

        Gerrymandering is not the same as “attempting to codify”. I have seen you trolling so many of this comment sections over the last few months spewing your same old BS and it really gets old. You love to argue and you are not even logical in your debates, just either ill informed or mentally unbalanced….possibly both, but if you don’t live in Texas, you really shouldn’t act like you know what is happening, you do not.

      • Charles Vincent

        see my other comment to you supply data supporting your claim period. Otherwise you’re just another low information troll who can only resort to name calling like a two year old.

      • gemma liar

        not rigging anything—– OK!!!! so: where were the regressive rightwing scumbags with VOTER ID when the last 45 presidents ran????

      • Charles Vincent

        This really became an issue during the senate hearings on the electronic polling machines and I think mail in ballots. Just a guess on my part though.

      • Aloanstar

        Charles, you are definitely wrong or just ignorant about the fact that republicans are rigging (gerrymandering) districts in Texas. THAT IS A FACT. I live in Texas and it keeps happening. If they don’t win in a district, they redraw the district maps until they get the results they want. They are like cockroaches….once they get in, they are almost impossible to get rid of. As soon as SCOTUS gutted the voting rights act, they went crazy with the districts and the voter ID laws.

      • Charles Vincent

        If it’s a fact where are the numbers bud all you have said is it’s fact yet you supply no data to support your flimsy claim.

      • Jerry Gruss

        So when a state that has a MAJORITY of Repu licans passes a law, and it is over ruled by one person (Holder) that is OK? Please explain

      • Charles Vincent

        Eric holder is a democrat. And it isn’t ok for any majority to inflict tyranny on the minority.

      • AlCum

        Jerry: When did Eric Holder overrule a law?

      • Mary Sulkowski

        What are you talking about? Rome was a republic for centuries before it became an empire.

        Did you mean Athens?

      • Charles Vincent

        “in 82 B.C., a general named Cornelius Sulla seized control of Rome. Sulla’s dictatorship was not like those of the past. He bypassed the Senate, which was filled with his enemies, and convinced the citizens’ assembly to make him a permanent dictator. Sulla then banished or killed hundreds of his opponents”
        He essentially used a mob rule form of democracy to kill the republic. Athens also suffered a similar fate.

      • Phil

        Really Charles. Take some time to actually study this stuff.
        Dictators was a temporary position (6 months, appointed in the utmost times of emergency) during almost the entire period of the Roman Republic. You forgot the 700 years of Roman history the preceded Sulla. In Rome people voted for people to fill public offices, just like we do today, There was a division of power and a variety of safeguards to prevent corruption and concentrations of power. In fact, there were two “presidents” (Consuls). Each year, two consuls were elected together, to serve for a one-year term. Each consul was given veto power over his colleague and the officials would alternate each month. This was the case for 700 years until the Republic collapsed and the era of the Emperors began. Sulla was an inflection point of change and yet you seem to think he represents all of Rome’s 1000+years…Sulla was arguably one of the signs that Rome was failing as a Republic, not a characteristic representation of Republics.

      • Charles Vincent

        I didn’t imply that I was pointing out that republics fall because of mob rule democracies. And to illustrate that turning point one that we are close to as a nation at this time. Please read the posts I reply to first so you can see the context in which I am replying.

      • Phil

        Charles that’s just not the meaning of the two terms Democracy and Republic. We have a representative republic and it entirely possible for the majority to inflict tyranny on the minority or even the majority itself. In a democracy in theory everyone votes on all actions (such as Athens unless of course you weren’t a free white male adult, what we call “Republican” today). IN a Republic you vote for representatives who vote, presumably representing your desires (though that’s clearly impossible all the time and arguable a lot of the time.) What we have is a constitutional system that ensure protections of the minorities to a degree by restraining the power of the majority.No system absolutely protects the minority. Ours has done a better job in general than almost any other in history.

        Really. That I learned in Pol. Sci 100, 40 some years ago.

        Now then the GOP has managed to hoodwink for a time and now to suppress the majority (since they no longer enlist a majority support on any issue at all really…they oppose things with 70, 80 90% support) and done so by dividing us into many minorities and villifying each and trying to turn each against another. That’s a despicable tactic that ends in the collapse of the government social contract.

      • Charles Vincent

        “We have a representative republic and it entirely possible for the majority to inflict tyranny on the minority or even the majority itself.”

        Look around they are already stomping all over the constitution, and that tyranny is coming in increments and has been for some time now. We haven’t been a true republics since around the turn of the 20th century.

        “In a democracy in theory everyone votes on all actions (such as Athens unless of course you weren’t a free white male”
        Democracy is easily twisted in to a mob rule mentality.
        You also assume that democrats commit no wrong against the liberty our founders intended us to have.

        “Now then the GOP has managed to hoodwink for a time and now to suppress the majority (since they no longer enlist a majority support on any issue at all really…they oppose things with 70, 80 90% support) and done so by dividing us into many minorities and villifying each and trying to turn each against another. That’s a despicable tactic that ends in the collapse of the government social contract.”

        This assumes the democrats do no wrong. That is a false assumption.

      • Phil

        I don’t make that assumption at all. I just look at the record and see the GOP has moved into the mode of no-nothing dogmatic uncompromising psuedo-theocracy. If the house is on fire I’m not going to point out that the grass needs mowing however. The Democrats are not the problem here.

        The GOP is so far divorced from reality they cannot even consider scientific facts that impact public policy, insisting on repeating lies and ignoring the demonstrable truth. As to true science they mount concerted campaigns to sway the people to believe that matters of near total consensus among scientists are unclear or unfounded, and find a few charlatans to say it’s unsettled or wrong. They were creamed and stripped of expectations at the last election because they didn’t wnat to recognize polls they didn’t like. They now court the black vote by calling black people parasites, and say that health care is bad for people.

        Yes the democrats aren’t perfect but they are not hell-bent on destroying government as bad and evil (then insisting they should be allowed to run it…to prove their point.) The GOP has placed itself in a position that makes it ineligible to productively participate in governance and have set their sites on stopping the function of government that the people want.

      • Charles Vincent

        “As to true science they mount concerted campaigns to sway the people to believe that matters of near total consensus among scientists are unclear or unfounded”

        Really where are your sources?

        “I don’t make that assumption at all. I just look at the record and see the GOP has moved into the mode of no-nothing dogmatic uncompromising psuedo-theocracy. If the house is on fire I’m not going to point out that the grass needs mowing however. The Democrats are not the problem here.”

        You are missing the fact that democrats and republicans are cut from the same cloth and not only have they set the house on fire they are not trying to set you on fire as well.

      • jchastn

        What a transparent evasion that statement is.

      • jchastn

        Phil’s statement makes no assumption about the Democrats. It doesn’t mention or refer to the Democrats. Read statements carefully before YOU make assumptions.

      • Charles Vincent

        He most certainly implied it, as have many other posters on this site. Right wing sites do the same.

      • jchastn

        Nope. I re-read it and theres not even an implication that Democrats are perfect and honest. Not even the implication. You are projecting that.

      • Charles Vincent

        That’s your opinion but in my estimation it is implied.

      • AlCum

        Your opinion is wrong.

      • gemma liar

        hey chuckles,,,,, whats your opinion on the voter FRAUD discrepancy VS the regressive shitbag crybabies on the right TRYING to manipulate the vote with suppression? any THOUGHTS on this EH chuckles???

      • Charles Vincent

        Requiring ID isn’t suppression as it requires everyone that votes to produce ID as evidence that they are legally eligible to vote in a particular town/district/state/country, the Jim Crowe laws are an example of suppression.

      • gemma liar

        cannot / willnot argue with that topical response: so allow this—— in YOUR opinion,,,where O where was all of this righteous ID need when all OTHER presidents were being voted in? it appeared- courtesy(??) of the tea party-backed obfuscatory republicans who KNOW they will NOT win a general election without this type of shenanigan circa 2009- present

      • Charles Vincent

        ” it appeared- courtesy(??) of the tea party-backed obfuscatory republicans who KNOW they will NOT win a general election without this type of shenanigan circa 2009- present”

        Speaking of obfuscatory this is a fancy bit of circular logic.

        See this link;

        http://www DOT bing DOT com/search?q=senate+hearings+on+electronic+voting+machines&form=MSNH14&pc=U142&refig=53e038f6cd5e45c89cd0c7f802573e61&pq=senate+hearings+on+electronic+voting+machines&sc=0-21&sp=-1&qs=n&sk=

      • gemma liar

        again,,,,,,,again,,,,,,,,again,,,,U did NOT stick to topic and answer my SIMPLE request: where was all of this ID “need” when all other Caucasian presidents were being elected? wanna TRY to answer this– or is your poly-razma-tazz smoke and mirrors the only way U can play?

      • Charles Vincent

        I did answer you just didn’t like it that’s your problem. This also in my opinion has zero to do with the color of ones skin. If you’re trying to assert that the burden of proof is on you.

      • regressive rightwing trash

        I will give credit(??) where due chuckles: U are indeeeeed remarkably consistent. Typical of regressive white trash rightwing crybabies. …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

      • Charles Vincent

        And you sir are a typical Liberal progressive i.e. you cant refute my argument so you resort to ad hominem attacks in a childish attempt to refute a factual argument. GG troll back to your bridge with you.

      • AlCum

        You are misinformed. A Constitutional Republic IS a democracy. Republics are one of the many forms of democracy. Please educate yourself.

      • Charles Vincent

        YOU Sir are ill informed and a buffoon republics are markedly different than a democracy;

        http://www DOT diffen DOT com/difference/Democracy_vs_Republic

      • AlCum

        Wow, you’ve got a bad case of myopia. A republic is NECESSARILY a form of democracy. Your incoherent babble is the equivalent of asserting that this car is a Mustang, not a Ford. Please brush up on Civics 101 before pulling your ill-informed stunts here. One cannot have a republic without first being a democracy.

        Yeesh.

      • Charles Vincent

        Republics aren’t ruled by democratic majority they are ruled by law and had you took the time to look at the link it clearly illustrates that a republic is not a democracy. Learn to read and use links it helps clear things up. Any political science/civics student will tell you they are different and so would a professor you don’t get to bend the facts prop up your opinion chief, and the only “stunt” here is your poor attempt at obfuscation

      • AlCum

        You’re suffering from terminal confusion, Charlie. Take a few breaths and try to understand this: A Republic by necessity is a democracy. There are many forms of democracy. Your particular gripe seems to be against pure democracy, in which everyone votes on everything. That is but one form. A constitutional republic is another form of democracy. We vote for the people who represent us — representative democracy.

        Your desperation is palpable. You’re losing badly here. What do you think of all those American presidents — Reagan, Bush, JFK, Ike, Clinton, Nixon… all of them — who have referred to the US as a democratic nation, a democracy? Are they “obfuscating?” You’re the only one obfuscating here, Charlie. You lost, big time.

        You can’t say “That car isn’t a Ford, it’s a Mustang.” Got it?

      • Charles Vincent

        What do you think of all those American presidents — Reagan, Bush, JFK,
        Ike, Clinton, Nixon… all of them — who have referred to the US as a
        democratic nation, a democracy? Are they “obfuscating?”

        They incorrectly called our government a democracy, You’re using a poor attempt to create both a logical fallacy and a strawman argument.

        Just after the completion and signing of the Constitution, in reply
        to a woman’s inquiry as to the type of government the Founders had
        created, Benjamin Franklin said, “A Republic, if you can keep it.”

        Recite the pledge of allegiance, it calls us a republic.

        The only desperation here is yours. Furthermore I will refer you to the federalist papers; numbers 10, 14, and 51 all of which refer to our form of government as a republic not a democracy.

        “You can’t say “That car isn’t a Ford, it’s a Mustang.” Got it?”
        This is a false equivalency as no where did I say republics did not use democratic mechanics to enact laws. Had you followed the whole discussion you would have realized this and not placed both your feet in your mouth. the two other posts i list show the big differences between democratic government and republican government. Got it?

      • AlCum

        I guess you’re too dense to understand that you conceded the point. Republics, by necessity, are democracies. It’s funny how you blowhards who need remedial civics always trip yourselves up.

        So after all your bloviating and thinking you know more than all the presidents and all the scholars, you slip up by admitting that republics are democracies.

        You need to grasp that Pure Democracy is not the only form of democracy. The US is a democracy that happens to be a constitutional republic.

        All the Founders’ references to being a republic does not negate that plain irrefutable fact that a republic is a form of democracy. If the founders had said “That car is a Mustang” would you continue to be so dense as to say “See, I told you that car wasn’t a Ford! It’s a Mustang!!” Poor Charlie. I’d say “Got it?” again but it’s apparent to all by now that you never will get it.

      • Charles Vincent

        Hello earth to Alcum I never said they weren’t I said we are a republic not a democracy the two forms are distinctly different you’re trying to play semantic games that’s a straw-man argument on your part, and you’re calling me dense. You still fail cause you didn’t read the whole thread of the discussion and chose to take my post out of context GG troll.

      • AlCum

        Now you’re just babbling incoherently, Chuckie. You never said republics aren’t democracies? Holy cow! You contradict yourself in your very next line: “I said we are a republic not a democracy.” Earth to Chuckles: We’re BOTH. A republic IS a democracy. You cannot BE a republic without being a democracy. Every president says you’re wrong. Get real and get a clue. You’re not as smart as you pretend to be.

      • Charles Vincent

        “Earth to Chuckles: We’re BOTH. A republic IS a democracy. You cannot BE a republic without being a democracy.”
        This whole statement is semantics and you’re to stupid to grasp that concept. We are not and never have been a true democracy you ignorant moron there is a difference between a true democracy and a republic, argue it if you want but it only makes you look like a mouthbreather. I already posted the big differences which you choose to ignore and continue a line of blathering idiocy about the semantics of republican governments using democratic mechanisms inside the structure of a republican form of government.

      • AlCum

        And here is where Chuckles the Clown proves himself to be a complete boob. Chuckles, check back in the thread and try to find where you “think” I ever claimed the US was a Pure Democracy. You won’t. You can’t. I never said it was Pure Democracy, which as I lectured you a few posts back, is but one of the many forms that democracy can take. A representative republic is but one more form of democracy. You look incredibly ignorant to still be arguing your losing point. Your stupid statement that “The US is not a democracy” is looking more and more stupid with each post you make. We are of course a democracy, as every president has said (you think you know more than the presidents! How funny!) A Constitutional republic IS a democracy. BY DEFINITION. Just because it’s not the Pure Democracy form of democracy doesn’t mean it’s not a democracy at all. Ford makes Mustangs but also makes Focus and Explorer and all other sorts of vehicles. Please stop embarrassing your parents with your moronic posts. You lost.

      • Charles Vincent

        “think” I ever claimed the US was a Pure Democracy. You won’t.”
        I never said you did, on the contrary you seem to think that I said somewhere that republican forms of government do not contain democratic mechanisms, this is not true, the fact is if you take a test and the question reads is the us a democracy or a republic and you answer democracy you’re wrong every time period. Your whole argument is predicated on the fact that I said the color is blue and your arguing that its royal blue, this is the essence of your argument and it is a childish argument
        furthermore the only “Loser her is you for trying to make perpetrate an argument based on 1) something I never claimed and 2) trying to argue semantics. Good luck arguing with yourself chief because any scholar would fail you and your weak argument.

      • AlCum

        Wow, Chuckles, I hadn’t suspected until now that you were doing drugs, but with this reply of yours, that has to be on the table. You’re actually denying the plain words you said earlier. Yes, sport, you DID claim that I was saying the US was a pure democracy, instead of what i actually said which is that it is the form of democracy that is a constitutional representative republic. And no, I don’t “seem” to be saying that you claimed republican forms of government do not contain democratic mechanism. THEY DO — THAT’S WHAT MAKES THEM A DEMOCRACY, you incredible boob. ou’re admitting it but denying you admit it.

        The answer to your test question is that the US is both — it is a democracy that is a constitutional republic. You seem to be trying to sustain the ludicrous notion they are mutually exclusive, that if you’re one, you cannot be the other, That’s nonsense. A Mustang doesn’t stop being a Ford when you call it a Mustang. If you are a republic, YOU ARE OF NECESSITY a democracy. If you’re not a democracy first, you cannot be a republic since a republic is a FORM OF DEMOCRACY.

        You should please lay off the drugs, Chuckles.

      • Charles Vincent

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      • AlCum

        “Democracy is worth dying for, because it’s the most deeply honorable form of government ever devised by man.”

        Ronald Reagan

      • Charles Vincent

        Republic

        Constraints on the government:Yes; the majority cannot take away certain inalienable rights

        Sovereignty is held by: the people (individuals)

        Common confusion in the USA:The US is actually a Republic. It is governed by rule of law. The elected is supposed to be bound by oath to the written governing limits (ie constitution) yet vote “together” and create laws to address concerns of the represented in a democratic way

        Definition:a constitutionally limited government, of the representative type, created by a written Constitution–adopted by the people and changeable by them only by its amendment–with its powers divided between three separate branches of government.

        History: United States

        Famous Examples: United States Of America

      • AlCum

        “In America, our origins matter less than our destination, and that is what democracy is all about.”

        Ronald Reagan

        Charlie loses again.

        Republic = One form of Democracy

    • Jerry Gruss

      Which laws are they bending? Fellow Dem here, would like you to explain. Reasoning out your position is how you understand

      • pdeazy

        The 24th amendment prohibits both Congress and the states from making the right to vote in elections dependent on payment of a poll tax or other types of tax.

        The legality of gerrymandering is more ambiguous. The Voting Rights Act prohibited redistricting on racial lines, but the Supreme Court just destroyed that legislation this year…so it’s really a matter of immorality that illegality in terms of gerrymandering.

    • Matthew Reece

      How can democracy be about protecting the rights of the minority when the minority always loses in a democracy?

  • John C

    Richard Charnin has done great work on election fraud in the US. He found that since 1988 over 280 elections have varied from the margin of error according to the exit polls. Exit polls are the most accurate of all polls. Of these 280 elections all but a couple varied to the republicans! A STATISTICAL IMPOSSIBILITY! Elections have been rigged for republicans for decades. How else do you explain poll after poll showing americans being FOR liberal policy and then voting the opposite way at the polls! wake up people!

    • justin williams

      i have never seen a poll by a respected polling company that shows America being for liberal policy! I know because it is self evident that portions of the country are strongly liberal and portions are strongly conservative.

      I have a legitimate question for my liberal friends here on this thread. do you agree with me that the United States has become more divided in the viewpoint of its citizens? I believe we have gone beyond the point of no return where we do not trust each other, we believe the other side is evil, that they lie and cheat to get their way and we simply do not have a basis for compromise or continuation?

      I suggest we divide the country. The Northeast, West, North can have liberal governments and the south and middle of the country can be governed by conservatives. Citizens have rights to real estate “swaps” from one part of the country to another and job swaps, or have elections determining wether each individual state wants to be liberal or conservative and we sign various treaties that allow us to live together but be governed apart.

      it would make more sense than liberals believing Republicans are ‘evil” lie cheat and steal and Republicans believing that democrats do the same.

      • Charles Vincent

        Well said.

      • Nik DeWitt

        Every day the republicans, themselves, prove they lie, cheat and steal in pursuit of their own ambitions. Most of them don’t even bother to deny it and a few of them even brag about it. So at least try to be real about your assertions. Yes, the country is divided right now, mostly due to a decades long effort by a minority of powerful people to achieve their own selfish ambitions. This country was divided once before to the point of war, but we managed to become united again for over 100 years, until these few people decided they couldn’t/wouldn’t get their way if we continued on the path of equality for all Americans, so they started their campaign to promote hate and distrust among the different factions of the country. We are the United States of America and we are going to remain the United States of America in spite of all the gerrymandering, voter suppression attempts, political obstructionism, lies, cheating and stealing the destroyers of America can come up with. Not only will we keep our country united, we will return it to the great respected nation it once was, while raising the standard of living for all the people of the United States. So the idea of dividing our country so a few greedy pricks can obtain a country of their own without paying for the infrastructure that benefits all the people is not going to happen.

      • Charles Vincent

        “Every day the democrats and republicans, themselves, prove they lie, cheat and steal in pursuit of their own ambitions. Most of them don’t even bother to deny it and a few of them even brag about it.”

        There we go I fixed it for you Nik.

      • Nik DeWitt

        Thank you!

      • nicsmurth

        False equivalency Fox paid troll

      • Charles Vincent

        Not really all politicians lie. Want proof?
        Look up on YouTube Obama’s stance on government spy programs, and the debt ceiling when he was a senator and presidential candidate, then compare that to his stand on those subjects now. I think you’ll find that Obama lied to you and everyone else.
        And if I could get any news agency to pay me to come here and expose charlatans like you I would be rich.

      • Aloanstar

        Charles, do you work or is this your work? Clicking on your name, all you do is blab in every comment section, endlessly. I do not really know why people pay any attention to you, maybe only because your desire is just to comment until you make someone mad enough to respond to you. Is that fun for you? I don’t understand your motive. You make people mad, you push tired arguments and convert no one….very rarely does anyone agree with you, yet you keep on playing the fool. I bet you lead a very lonely existence, because I know no one would sit face to face with you very long, being forced to try and carry on a conversation or having to listen to your diatribe and condescending tone. I can not imagine a worse evening.

      • jchastn

        And how will you in the conservative states feed those who are hungry, or give your citizens who are on Medicaid access to health care? Or housing? Because the northern liberal states will no longer send out the checks to you. The states that you describe use more Federal Dollars than they pay in taxes. If you separate yourselves from the US Government, you have a big financial problem

    • Charles Vincent

      “How else do you explain poll after poll showing americans being FOR liberal policy and then voting the opposite way at the polls!”

      “Self-preservation and self-development are common aspirations among all people. And if everyone enjoyed the unrestricted use of his faculties and the free disposition of the fruits of his labor, social progress would be ceaseless, uninterrupted, and unfailing.

      But there is also another tendency that is common among people. When they can, they wish to live and prosper at the expense of others. This is no rash accusation. Nor does it come from a gloomy and uncharitable spirit. The annals of history bear witness to the truth of it: the incessant wars, mass migrations, religious persecutions, universal slavery, dishonesty in commerce, and monopolies. This fatal desire has its origin in the very nature of man — in that primitive, universal, and insuppressible instinct that impels him to satisfy his desires with the least possible pain.”

  • James Daley

    My question is why don’t republicains have to prove with hard facts and evidence that voter fraud is a problem. Before legislation is drawn up or for that matter passed why is no one (democrats ) holding their feet to the fire and saying I would like to see proof of this so called problem. Also, why is no one on the media asking the same questions to the republicans writing these laws.

    • because they understand the psychology of fear and they use it to their advantage. as for the media…… it’s the same thing. they will just start screaming about a “liberal media bias” and that shuts them up (that excludes a few left leaning opinion shows)

      • Charles Vincent

        So do democrats and liberals when it comes to gun control. Nice to meet you pot can I introduce you to kettle?

      • Nik DeWitt

        So you are telling us that the stories we see on an almost daily basis about families, kids and people killing each other and themselves with guns is made up?

      • Charles Vincent

        No I am saying democrats use fear mongering to scare people.

      • heynonnymouse

        A tactic they learned from their republican brethren.

      • Charles Vincent

        You can’t prove that theory either way.

      • BackSeatJesus

        Tens of thousands of people killed each year IS scary. A few people caught fraudulently voting, not so much.

      • Charles Vincent

        And you’re never going to solve the problem because you continually blame inanimate objects and seek to treat the symptom as apposed to treating the actual problem.

      • gemma liar

        please edify us all with gun CONTROL ( IE: taking away all your guns) legislation made by the liberal dems,,,and Obama…. any legislation to remove all our guns? NO???

      • Charles Vincent

        I never said all guns. I did however point to the Fienstein AWB that banned outright ownership and purchase of some 200 semi auto rifles and accessories which prevented families from inheriting a firearm and prevented them for purchasing any new ones. That’s a ban on guns and an unconstitutional one according to DC v Heller.

      • freedomluver

        ooooh, THEY are gonna take away our guns, so when we go all murderous neanderthal or paranoid nutcase, what will we use? (sarcasm) Guns are dangerous, YOU are dangerous and deluded. Not everyone is into guns and killing, not everyone. But you won’t change, the aggressive, authoritarian few are in every society: see Germany in the 30’s, Taliban, too many examples. So why would we want to arm you? Make it easy for you?

      • Charles Vincent

        So because I stand up for my natural right of self defense I am some how deluded and dangerous… Well let’s ban the truth then cause it’s dangerous and let’s ban speech because people use it to foment hate and encourage violence against others GG your dumb theory is so full of fail its funny. You want to know what makes it easy? Well it’s ignorant myopic people like you that seek to subvert people’s rights. And guess what waking up and walking out my front door everyday is dangerous, life is a dangerous endeavor my friend and none, I repeat none of us will get out of life alive so stop talking about dangerous.

    • Nik DeWitt

      Because the media that is not already owned and controlled by republicans or their supporters is quickly being gobbled up by them. For example of the bidding war between the koch brothers and rupert murdoch to take over the Tribune Company newspapers. They have been working on this for years by changing the laws that controlled the ownership of media outlets to make sure differing points of view were available to all areas of the country and by going to the SCOTUS and redefining the definition of news. It is just to bad that the internet came along before they accomplished their goals, but make no mistake about it, they are trying to gain control of what information is available on the internet, too. And they will if we continue the complacency we have been taking for the last few years that allowed them to accomplish the control they have gained.

  • Matthew Reece

    “If voting changed anything, they’d make it illegal.” ~Emma Goldman

  • Karen Fortier

    The t-baggers can do whatever they think will win them an election. If everyone takes the opportunity to start early enough there will be a way you can manage to get registered and do whatever it takes to make sure you can vote. I make a point to help people get to the DMV and help them get their registration filled out properly. A group of women and I talk to our elderly friends and neighbors and find out what we can do to help them vote. Any little thing helps and it will be well worth your time come election day. Griping about the meaness and bigotry of the t-baggers won’t win any elections, but doing all we can to help our fellow Progressives will make all the difference in the long run. This is an important time in our history and we must make sure the GOP doesn’t keep us from our right to vote!

  • mike wood

    democrats only want want want and mooch off of the government because their lazy asses want the easy way out and never want to work hard for their money. All you section 8 housing scums with 12 children and cant even take care of yourself. I dont give a shit if your black, white, brown, yellow or orange. Get your ass up and start working and contributing to this country. Who gives a shit about gays and lesbians. Let them do their own thing, America is becoming a sad sad place to be living in. No one can take a stand and take care of their own responsibilities. Fight for whats morally right. The Bible has been around way longer than us, so let’s not deviate from it. Take a stand and help this Country grow and make it powerful as it once was.

    A concerned 17 year old.

    • Karen Peters

      Concerned 17 year old.
      Apparently you have been brainwashed by you parents to believe the way you do. You have not lived long enough nor have you had enough life experiences with politics or any other aspect of life to realize how utterly false or unrealistic your beliefs are. Hell, you are not even old enough to vote.
      Just to fill you in, democrats are not lazy assed mooches that live off of the govenment. We do not all live in section 8 housing (not sure you even know what section 8 housing is) and we do not all have 12 children. Most of us work 40 hours a week and we pay our fair share of taxes unlike many of the 1% that have 100’s of loopholes that reduce their taxes to way below what we pay or who hide their money in off shore accounts and pay no taxes at all.
      Perhaps before you repeat the crap that you have been led to believe, you should do a little research about which states recieve more dollars back for every tax dollar paid in. It sure isn’t the blue states. The southern red states (you know republican states) recieve back way more than they ever pay in.
      The democrats are fighting for what is morally right. We are fighting for our rights as citizens of the USA. It is the far right Tea Party/GOP that are trying to take our rights away, state by state. Check out some of the laws they are passing in their states behind closed doors with no input or ignored input from the citizens. That is not a democracy, that is a dictatorship.
      As far as not deviating from what the Bible teaches us, I agree. My Bible teaches me to love thy neighbor regardless of their race or sexual orientation. It also teaches me to take care of and help those that are less fortunate than I am. That is not what the right is teaching, they could care less about anyone but themselves. If they keep up with what they are doing, you are in a world of hurt for you and your generation. You will have no rights, of course unless you are one of the 1% that are set for life because of you parents.
      So, concerned 17 year old, maybe you should stop listening to your parents on this one and think for yourself after you research what is being taught to you. Hopefully before you are of legal age to vote.
      A concerned 58 year old.

      • Charles Vincent

        Way to marginalize people when they don’t share your ideology that’s classic liberal doctrine.

      • Karen Peters

        Accuse me of maginalizing. Did you not read Concerned 17 year old’s comment? His comment is full of stereotyping of democrats that the right wing claim to be truth. How many democrats do you really think that Concerned 17 year old has really got to know to make statements like these? Concerned 17 year old has not even lived long enough to form this opinion on his own, so it must be the opinion someone else that has influenced him to think that way.
        This kid is 17 years old, not even old enough to vote yet, but claims great knowledge about what democrats are like. Most kids that age, I would say 99% of them, do not know about, understand or even care about politics. And those of them that claim they do are only parrotting their parents veiw on issues.
        My suggestion stands, he needs to educate himself before he goes and spouts off about issues and people he knows nothing about.

      • Charles Vincent

        Yes I did and you assumed since he is young he didn’t know anything. Educate himself so he is a drone like you?

        “My suggestion stands, he needs to educate himself before he goes and spouts off about issues and people he knows nothing about.”

        This is you again marginalizing him. You have know idea what he knows. And you sport a large amount of arrogance to think just because he is you they you are right and he is wrong.

        Parroting… That’s rich like your not parroting what people with your political and moral code believes. Now your not only arrogant you’re a hypocrite.

        “How many democrats do you really think that Concerned 17 year old has really got to know to make statements like these?”

        Perhaps his parents and their friends are democrats.
        You assume to much.

      • jchastn

        “Concerned 17 year old” is not 17 years old, nor is he “concerned”. He is a troll.

      • Charles Vincent

        Interesting hypothesis.

    • nonyerfrigginbusiness

      The Bible? Get serious !

    • Jason

      Trolls are funny because they live under bridges and ask for money.

    • Maggie Alcantara

      fuck you dip shit if it wasn’t for us middle class democrats you would have a fucking leg to stand on we are the back bone of this country we take out your fucking trash, we take care of your grandmother when she’s in a nursing home so don’t fuck’n sit there and tell me we are lazy

    • Maggie Alcantara

      mike you are a child and obviously know nothing of the real world you need to to take politics 101 classes and learn more about what’s really going on yes we do have SOME people who are lazy and would rather live off tax dollar but notice I said SOME and not everyone can get a job as easily as you think. the bible is not what our country is ran by it is ran by logical, middle class people, and that my dear BOY is exactly what us democrats & liberals are trying to do take back what is ours!!! republicans on the other hand would rather enslave us all while they live off of us

    • A Concerned Mom

      Red states receive more federal money than they pay in. Blue states pay in more than they receive. You clearly don’t know who the moochers are. Please educate yourself.

    • Mike Minyen

      Concerned 17 year old, some day you’ll grow up and learn to actually think you yourself.

    • Michael Brown

      Don’t be fooled, people. This idiot is no more a 17 year old than any of us is the Emperor of the World. He’s just another sad, aging, right-wing nutjob who’s been told that choking on Rush’s engorged member is the way to heaven.

      • Nik DeWitt

        I was just getting ready to post the same thing. I would hope a 17 year old would still be in school and Mike’s grammar skills tend to contribute serious doubt about that — or maybe he just lives in a state where they have cut educational funds to a point where he doesn’t know any better.

    • Phil

      Here i am 64, a lifelong democrat, one child, three grandkids. Worked 45 years and retired because I didn’t have a choice. Live on Social Security (which I will remind you is simply returning to me money I and my employers jointly paid in and is not a give away nor a Ponzi scheme) now. Served in the Vietnam War era. What made this country powerful was when its governance was focused on helping all citizens to achieve and the idea that government was here to DO things that could make life better. Look up TVA if you want to know what makes life better. OK I will forgive you because you are 17 and clearly you have not gone to good public schools. I went to Catholic schools and paid my tuition by working every weekend for the school…the I went to a nearly free public University and got three degrees. Then I worked as a senior manager and executive in high tech firms. But I don’t think I nor most people period mooch off the government…and I INVITE you to try living just one month on food stamps and public assistance funds. Your idea of what a gravy train that is will change pretty fast, Don’t get sick though…

      • Charles Vincent

        “Live on Social Security (which I will remind you is simply returning to me money I and my employers jointly paid in and is not a give away nor a Ponzi scheme) now.”
        Wrong the money you payed in went to people that were retired when you payed in, your child and grand children are paying your SS now and although it may not be a total sham even the CBO admits its going Down the tube fast, and will most likely be bankrupt between 2023 and 2035 and furthermore this process will hasten when the baby boomer generation starts retiring enmassé.

      • Phil

        Well Charles excuse me but that’s a distinction without meaningful impact. The literal same dollars I paid in are not those being paid back to me, I agree. Those dollars were submitted as checks anyway, and the checks won’t be sent back to me, new checks will be sent.

        Yes the fund was not properly managed, and the money has to be eventually be paid back by taxpayers because they borrowed it from ME.

        But my point is unchanged in that I did NOT ask for nor do I receive a handout; I am not sucking at John Boehner’s or Mitt Romney’s metaphorical public tit; it’s money due me as an investment I made, which both of those brigands should readily acknowledge.

        And there are ways to fix the problem and I would bet you that in 2050 (a date I do not expect to meet so the bet’s off) the program will be in place and working just fine. Because it CAN work and because it’s the most popular government program ever so the political will to fix the problem will emerge. Probably without anyone from the Republican party’s involvement since none of them will be in office by that time.

      • Charles Vincent

        It’s a distinction that has weight because when it goes down the tube because corrupt politicians can’t pay back the ~2.5 trillion dollars they “borrowed”(I use that term loosely) the people won’t get anything they payed in.

        They didn’t just borrow from you they borrowed from every current an future taxpayer.

        It isn’t just Boehner and Romney it’s pretty much all politicians that have their hands in the till.

        Yes there are ways to fix it and the CBO has issued a report detailing some of those ways, problem is, is that the more money the get their grubby hands on the more they spend and to verify that one need look no farther than the Detroit bankruptcy, and our national debt that is inflating to an unsustainable level.

        “Probably without anyone from the Republican party’s involvement since none of them will be in office by that time.”
        This is a childish attempt to point the finger at someone else in an attempt to shirk the democrats part of the responsibility in our economic situation.

    • nina bartoletta

      Pap Pap and Dad have been feeding you some horse manure with your carrots, kiddo. Wait till you dry behind those big dumbo ears then start educating yourself beyond FOX. Ya might learn something real.

    • jchastn

      You have been told a bunch of lies. Probably since birth. Prove that you are smarter than the liars that raised you.

  • Jason

    So we take them to court. Over and over and over, until they are so spending so much taxpayer money on the defense of indefensible laws that they can no longer justify trying to pass those laws to begin with. Mass class-action lawsuits will win the day here.

  • Jason

    What will the excuse be when we beat them in elections despite these laws?

  • Charles Vincent

    Wow Allen Clifton is an ignorant hypocrite.

    “Simple. Because if someone wants to break a law, they will. A fake ID isn’t hard to obtain and if someone is hell bent on fraudulent voting, they’re going to vote fraudulently.”

    Demand a plan we must do something it doesn’t matter that there were only 13 cases of in person voter fraud we need to eradicate it by passing strict voter ID laws to crush that 13 cases down to zero. It doesn’t matter if it causes a little inconvenience to us if it helps end voter fraud. Demand a plan! Demand that your senators and congressmen vote for these voter ID laws.

    • Erika Frensley

      So you’d disenfranchise thousands, tens of thousands so that the .001 error rate is eliminated. Someone who votes fraudulently has to 1) make sure his fake ID matches up to a voter on the voting rolls in name, address, and associated ID (and in Texas, exactly), 2) Show up and vote in said name, with said address, and hope that the actual voter doesn’t appear or that the voter isn’t already known to the precinct officials, 3) be willing to go to jail and be fined if they’re caught, which is rather likely given the difficulties of 1 and 2. I think the willfully ignorant label belongs to you.

      • Charles Vincent

        So you would disenfranchise 100 million gun owners to stop a handful of criminals?
        I have to have an ID to buy cigarettes, alcohol, drive a car, get a bank account cash a paycheck, etcetera why is it such a big leap to ask potential voters to show proof that they are who they are and are legal residents in the precinct they are voting in? And how does having to run to the local state office and get an ID and state birth certificate such a burden?

      • Erika Frensley

        You do realize that voters are already requested to show ID – that’s the voter registration card. If you do not have that, then you can use a drivers license, passport, or many other forms of ID (utility bills or gov’t mail addressed to you at that address were also accepted). Before the voter ID law, all you needed was something to prove your identity – an expired drivers license at your address (if you don’t drive, why renew it). Now if your driver’s license is expired past a certain time, you have to reapply – which means finding a birth certificate (which costs money) which may be difficult for the elderly to obtain. When they originally got their ID, the requirements weren’t as stringent, so once they got the ID, it was good to go. Now they have to start from scratch. And all your ID must match – if your name was misspelled on your birth certificate, it will not be accepted for your proof of identity. If you’re a woman and recently divorced or widowed, most wait until the ID expired before renewing it. Now they have to renew it – and if you changed your name when you married, you now have to have the paperwork to change your name back (something men don’t generally deal with). OK, so tell me how an 80 year old woman who may be recently widowed, hasn’t driven for years, and was born at home quickly and easily gets a new ID.

      • Charles Vincent

        I do realize that which is why it’s so insane to scoff at any attempt to codify it as a law.
        The case of the 80 year old could be solved by showing the expired ID like you suggest in your post.

      • Erika Frensley

        Very true. Except that an expired ID more than 6 mos out is not acceptable as identification. Said 80year old voter could have her voter registration card, have voted in the past 40 elections, and having lived in the same house all that time be personally known to the poll staff, but without that special piece of photo ID couldn’t vote. That’s the problem – they’ve tightened the requirements to intentionally (by their own words) disenfranchise folks that have already been legally voting, or are legally eligable to vote. That’s the problem.

      • Charles Vincent

        Who said that’s why they did it? Post the quote. And presumably the lady has family that can help her get the needed ID.

      • Erika Frensley

        Pennsylvania’s GOP chairman Rob
        Gleason told a
        local TV station this week that voter ID had helped to “cut
        [votes for] Obama by 5%” in the 2012 presidential election. His statement
        came just over a year after Pennsylvania Republican House Leader Mike
        Turzai admitted that voter ID efforts were intended to
        suppress Democratic votes, telling a Republican Steering Committee meeting
        that voter ID “is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania,
        done.”

        And if she has no family able to help her? You know, you’ve asked the same questions over and over on posts about voter ID, and you receive the same facts. At some point I have to assume you like to play, but not actually debate. Bye.

      • Charles Vincent

        Republican contention seems to be that democrats are getting votes from dubious sources.

        “VOTER ID JULY 22, 2013
        Finally, Real Numbers on Voter ID
        BY NATE COHN
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        One of the most frustrating discussions of 2012 was about voter identification laws. Voter ID laws seemed like they would disproportionately impact non-white, student, and elderly voters, who were widely assumed to tilt Democratic. There were big, flashy numbers about the number of registered voters without photo identification. Pennsylvania, for instance, famously announced that 759,000 registered voters didn’t have photo identification, causing a hyperventilating Dave Weigel to depict the law as “an apocalypse waiting to happen.” But voter ID laws had been implemented across the country over the last decade, and there just wasn’t solid evidence that voter ID laws meaningfully reduced turnout, let alone hurt the performance of Democratic candidates. Even the best studies were very weak, and there were states like Georgia and Indiana, where Obama excelled after voter ID laws were enacted. The consequences of voter ID laws were imperceptible.

        But finally, there are better numbers on how voter ID laws might influence one critical battleground state. North Carolina is considering a strict new voter ID law, so North Carolina’s Secretary of State has conducted an analysis estimating how many voters have a state-issued photo ID. This isn’t necessarily new; states have done these sorts of analyses before. But North Carolina’s analysis overcomes many of the limitations that reduced the usefulness of previous assessments, like Pennsylvania’s. Other efforts required an exact match between voter registration and DMV databases; North Carolina expanded their matching criteria to allow for slight variations in names and data entry errors. North Carolina didn’t just look at how many registered voters didn’t have voter ID, they also looked at how many voters from the 2012 general election didn’t have voter ID. That’s very important, since it’s easy to imagine that voters without a car, or the elderly and the young would be especially likely to stay home on Election Day. And since North Carolina tracks voter registration by race and party, we have a pretty clear idea of how they would have voted.

        The North Carolina data confirms what many suspected: Voter ID laws have a disparate impact on non-white and Democratic voters. According to the North Carolina Secretary of State, 46 percent of unmatched voters in the 2012 general election were non-white, compared to 30 percent of all registered voters. Similarly, 36 percent were black, compared to 23 percent of registered voters. And 58 percent of voters without a state-issued ID were Democrats, compared to 43 percent of all registered voters.

        But despite a disproportionate impact on Democratic-leaning groups, the electoral consequences of voter ID seem relatively marginal. After expanding their matching criteria, the number of North Carolina registered voters without a state-issued photo ID dropped from 612,955 to 318,643. And of those unmatched registered voters, just 138,425 participated in the 2012 general election. That confirms that voters without photo identification are far less likely to vote than their peers: 72 percent of registered voters with a state issued photo ID participated in the 2012 general election, compared to just 42 percent of voters who couldn’t be matched with a license or other form of identification. Of those unmatched registered voters who didn’t participate in 2012, fully 63 percent hadn’t participated in any of the last five general elections.

        By plugging in the exit poll numbers for race and party identification—which isn’t quite the same as party registration—we can estimate that Obama would have won approximately 60 percent of unmatched voters, by a margin of about 25,000 to 30,000 votes.

        As a result, Obama’s share of the vote in North Carolina might have dropped from 48.3 to 48 percent, expanding Romney’s margin of victory from 92,000 to about 120,000 votes. 25,000 to 30,000 votes could flip a very close election, but nothing more. In 2012, no state was so close.

        A few caveats. The Secretary of State analysis attempted to match voter registration with state-issued photo identification, but a number of alternative forms of identification—ranging from passports to student IDs—may be acceptable, depending on the law. Some unknown number of voters would probably acquire a valid form of identification to allow them to vote.

        Additionally, the results in North Carolina may not be representative of other states. For instance, North Carolina has large black and student populations that might make the state something of a “worst case” scenario for Democrats. On the other hand, North Carolina isn’t full of huge cities like Philadelphia or New York, where urban, Democratic voters are unusually dependent on public transportation and less likely to own a car.

        These data leave no question about whether voter ID laws have a disparate impact on non-white voters. In that sense, Democratic fears and Republican hopes are confirmed. But the North Carolina data also suggests that voter ID laws are unlikely to flip the outcome of a national election, even if it does have an objectionable, disparate impact on non-white and Democratic-leaning voters. That doesn’t mean it couldn’t play a role in a close election—and close elections do happen. But Republicans expecting to flip Pennsylvania or Democrats fearing that Republicans will steal elections with voter ID should be circumspect about the comparatively modest electoral consequences. Many of the registered voters without a photo ID just aren’t voting and 40 percent of them are probably voting Republican. If you want voter ID because you think you’ll steal Pennsylvania, or you’re opposed because you’re concerned it’s a Democratic apocalypse, move on. It’s not the apocalypse, even if it is an affront to voting rights.”

  • emeraldeyes24

    Democracy is on the line here and this is another example of the splintering of America that is going to be its downfall. Voting laws need to stop being regionalized and start being consistent across the country – at the federal level and ANY hint of voter irregularities should be investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law at Eric Holder’s official level – that includes any and all candidates!

  • Jeremy William Morgan

    Since it is illegal to not have a valid I.D. on you anyway, why is the writer making such a big issue about it?

    • heynonnymouse

      “illegal to not have a valid I.D. on you”? Where do you live that has that requirement? I know of no state that has such laws on the books.

  • Jerry Gruss

    You need a photo ID for everyday life, here you need one for sudafed or nail polish remover

  • Jerry Gruss

    All states try to rig redistricting. Look at MD where they split the one republican district in 2, to ensure 0 Rep districts

  • Apolitical

    Comparing the percentage of actual voter fraud versus being struck by lightning would make a great poster … and a counterpoint against the necessity for enacting draconian measures on the state level to restrict voting.

  • Pitt90

    There’s little doubt in my mind that gerrymandering is the greatest threat our democracy faces. It insulates extremism, and disincentivizes cooperation. It should be number #1 on our list if we’re truly serious about “saving this country” as the crazies on both sides say.

  • Karen Hayes

    When I went to the local DMV for a licence, I had two passports, the deed to my home, my old driving licence and my marriage certificate… they refused me a driving liscence because I did not have a bill addressed to me! I told the woman ” I have enough I.D. to visit China!” but I still had to come back the next day.

  • reeblite

    why do you think mitt romney’s son is an executive of a company that manufactures voting machines and that came out during the last election????
    so they couldn’t rig the machines. after eight years do they think we’ll forget and handout machines that only count a percentage of democrat votes???? republicans have no shame, they’re a bunch of sociopaths who have to get their way, at any cost. letting people die with no access to healthcare is darwinism. they’re so above everyone. problem is, the poor republicans get to die like the rest of the poor fools do. this is their way of weeding out the weak. has nothing to do with being christian. it’s survival of the fittest, which is the one percent, not the republican party that the one percent owns.

  • Marc Daniels

    When I look and hear at the galvanizing of grassroots organizations that germinate our inner weeds into a weed patch, I think about all of the missed opportunities. To be sure politics, by its very nature, pits one group of citizens again another. The real challenge facing our country is one of rooting out violence, bullying and promoting family values. The best way to do this is by inspiring citizens to do this naturally. Instead of promoting weeds, we could be promoting lush beautiful trees, instead of promoting suffocating seeds of hatred, we could be pollinating peace and love

  • TDream

    Marco Rubio (R-FL), who won with less than 50% of the vote, said that even one case of voter fraud was too many, but he didn’t say how many cases of voter disenfranchisement were too many. I’m having to chase down a 52-year-old marriage certificate.

  • Marc Daniels

    When I look and hear at the galvanizing of grassroots organizations that germinate our inner weeds into a weed patch, I think about all of the missed opportunities. To be sure politics, by its very nature, pits one group of citizens again another. The real challenge facing our country is one of rooting out violence, bullying and promoting family values. The best way to do this is by inspiring citizens to do this naturally. Instead of promoting weeds, we could be promoting lush beautiful trees, instead of promoting suffocating seeds of hatred, we could be pollinating peace and love

  • Gary Menten

    The more the Republicans try to suppress the voice of the people, the more it will come back to bite them in the ass.

  • Stephen Barlow

    Is the Republican War Machine that inflicted ‘Democracy’ on the Iraqi people AGAINST their will, providing the first free elections ever in that nation, advocating voter ID’s in Iraq?

    I think it’s time for the grand children of Republican Congressional leaders to have bondage.snuff videos go viral on the web… until the bills stacked up on Beohner’s desk go to the floor for an up and down vote.

    That or start picking them off while hunting… Ted Cruz and Dick Cheney both swear that ‘accidents happen’. Do we have a recent facial pic of Cheney’s last ‘accident victim’?