Senator Bernie Sanders Exposes the Truth Behind What the Koch Brothers Want For Our Country

david-kochI like asking the Republicans I talk with if they know who the Koch brothers are.  I do this because, shockingly enough, the overwhelming majority of them have never even heard of the multibillionaires.  It’s also interesting considering the Koch brothers – and their vast fortunes – are the driving forces behind much of what the Republican party has been supporting for the last several years.


Many conservatives blindly support almost anything the GOP tells them to support without an inkling of an idea about the real force that’s almost singlehandedly buying their entire party.

Well, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders dug up an old campaign platform of the Libertarian party from 1980 when it just so happens that David Koch was running for Vice President on the Libertarian ticket.

Just take a look at what the party – and David Koch – was pushing for in 1980:

  • “We urge the repeal of federal campaign finance laws, and the immediate abolition of the despotic Federal Election Commission.”
  • “We favor the abolition of Medicare and Medicaid programs.”
  • “We oppose any compulsory insurance or tax-supported plan to provide health services, including those which finance abortion services.”
  • “We also favor the deregulation of the medical insurance industry.”
  • “We favor the repeal of the fraudulent, virtually bankrupt, and increasingly oppressive Social Security system. Pending that repeal, participation in Social Security should be made voluntary.”
  • “We propose the abolition of the governmental Postal Service. The present system, in addition to being inefficient, encourages governmental surveillance of private correspondence.  Pending abolition, we call for an end to the monopoly system and for allowing free competition in all aspects of postal service.”
  • “We oppose all personal and corporate income taxation, including capital gains taxes.”
  • “We support the eventual repeal of all taxation.”
  • “As an interim measure, all criminal and civil sanctions against tax evasion should be terminated immediately.”
  • We support repeal of all law which impede the ability of any person to find employment, such as minimum wage laws.”
  • “We advocate the complete separation of education and State.  Government schools lead to the indoctrination of children and interfere with the free choice of individuals. Government ownership, operation, regulation, and subsidy of schools and colleges should be ended.”
  • “We condemn compulsory education laws … and we call for the immediate repeal of such laws.”
  • “We support the repeal of all taxes on the income or property of private schools, whether profit or non-profit.”
  • “We support the abolition of the Environmental Protection Agency.”
  • “We support abolition of the Department of Energy.”
  • “We call for the dissolution of all government agencies concerned with transportation, including the Department of Transportation.”
  • “We demand the return of America’s railroad system to private ownership. We call for the privatization of the public roads and national highway system.”
  • “We specifically oppose laws requiring an individual to buy or use so-called “self-protection” equipment such as safety belts, air bags, or crash helmets.”
  • “We advocate the abolition of the Federal Aviation Administration.”
  • “We advocate the abolition of the Food and Drug Administration.”
  • “We support an end to all subsidies for child-bearing built into our present laws, including all welfare plans and the provision of tax-supported services for children.”
  • We oppose all government welfare, relief projects, and ‘aid to the poor’ programs. All these government programs are privacy-invading, paternalistic, demeaning, and inefficient. The proper source of help for such persons is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals.
  • “We call for the privatization of the inland waterways, and of the distribution system that brings water to industry, agriculture and households.”
  • “We call for the repeal of the Occupational Safety and Health Act.”
  • “We call for the abolition of the Consumer Product Safety Commission.”
  • “We support the repeal of all state usury laws.”

If we did everything on this list, our entire country would implode.  No tax revenue?  Goodbye military.  No social safety nets?  Let’s go ahead and add millions more to the homeless numbers.  No public transportation?  Good luck getting to work if you don’t have a car.  Oh, and if you do have a car good luck affording to drive anywhere on roads that are all privatized.


No EPA or FDA?  Enjoy drinking polluted water and food that’s contaminated.  Hurricane or tornado rips through your town?  Sorry, no FEMA or government money of any kind to help you out.

This list is pure insanity – but this is the ideology that David Koch ran on in 1980.  It’s an ideology that both David and his brother Charles Koch continue to try to push for today; an ideology that’s sweeping through the Republican party.

And I don’t know about you, but this list absolutely terrified me.  If anyone tried to create a country based on these principles, the results would be catastrophic.

But this is what the Republican party, more specifically the tea party, is trying to do to this country.  It’s a wake-up call millions of Americans need to understand.



Allen Clifton

Allen Clifton is a native Texan who now lives in the Austin area. He has a degree in Political Science from Sam Houston State University. Allen is a co-founder of Forward Progressives and creator of the popular Right Off A Cliff column and Facebook page. Be sure to follow Allen on Twitter and Facebook, and subscribe to his channel on YouTube as well.

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  • TerriP

    They want to repeal civilization. As the sons of one of the founders of the John Birch Society they are so terrified of “communism” anything that smacks of community is abhorrent to them. They are neither smart or sane.

  • BikinBuddha

    Disturbed…

  • Droopy Fiasco

    Lord. This is the definition of un-American. Not people trying to HELP and UPLIFT and SUPPORT their fellow citizens. All of these ideas are against the well being and safety of absolutely everybody.

    • joecrouse

      I have no problem Voluntarily redistributing my wealth. I abhor the fact that your laws Force this upon me and I will seek to do everything I can to reduce this un just coercion

  • MLR

    The problem with conservatives, is that stuff like this sounds good on paper to them, until it affects them personally. They’re probably thinking “yay, no taxes!”, but then they’ll wonder why their roads and bridges are falling apart. Or worse yet, why “that road” is no longer free when it used to be. They’ll consider this list “freedom from the govamint” until they realize how much they really depend on the “govamint” for a variety of services. I’ve always told my conservative friends that they are being manipulated and brainwashed (indirectly) by super wealthy and powerful people. And then there’s that accusation that “liberals hate rich people”. No, liberals do not hate rich people, they hate their ideology because like this article states, the results WOULD be catastrophic. If this happened I would for sure move to another country. I wouldn’t want to, but staying here would mean living in utter poverty and despair, in a poverty-ridden, polluted and corrupt country.

    • Matthew Reece

      But because they aren’t paying taxes, they have the money to pay a private construction company to build and maintain the roads, as well as pay any tolls that may arise. This is if we don’t find some better way of getting from point A to point B without all of the government subsidies that prop up the petroleum and automobile industries which could be used to help find something better.

      • Griffin

        hell yeah because government has problems fuck trying to fix it just tear it all down and lets live in a capitalist state of anarchy… fuck off

      • Matthew Reece

        Government has problems which cannot be fixed because they are inherent parts of government. So yes, tear it all down and live in a capitalist anarchy.

      • Daniel Tregant

        If we did, nothing would get done, everything would crumble and the ultra rich would be laughing at us from their enclaves.

      • Matthew Reece

        Do you really believe that free people acting voluntarily would not get anything done? Do you really believe that people have to have guns pointed at them before they will do anything productive? And even if this were true, what are the ultra-rich going to do if they don’t have infrastructure that allows people to patronize their businesses? They will have to keep up the infrastructure if no one else will.

      • artisanr

        There are simple laws like off the clock lunch breaks that businesses must follow.

        Wal Mart has been busted many times for not allowing employees to get ample time for lunch breaks. The only thing that balances it out are class action lawsuits, bad publicity and the boycott,

        So yes…MOST people, especially the wealthy, do need some sort of consequences to operate civilly, in a society where people NEED to behave civilly so the entire society doesn’t implode.

      • naryaquid

        Sure, they’d get it done — for THEMSELVES. Do you like the idea of PRIVATE ROADS, private Schools that are too expensive for any but the RICH to afford?…That’s what you’d be looking at and a WHOLE lot more — We’d be in a Third World Hell Hole of a few multi- billionaires and the Mainly Poor who would have to work 16 hour days for WHATEVER chump change your Billionaire Masters would care to throw your way — A two tier society of Rich and Poor — NO middle class and No power for those who did all the work — It would be virtual slavery.

      • Matthew Reece

        Private roads and private schools would be less expensive because their owners would have to compete to get people to use them. Competition lowers prices.

        Note that if the rich ostracize everyone else for not being as wealthy as them, then they will lose the customers that made them wealthy. In time, their wealth would decay. Most rich people would be smart enough to understand this and would therefore not take this course of action.

      • Roy Batty

        This is naïve beyond description. If someone owns a huge stretch of interstate, do you honestly think that someone else is going spend billions of dollars to build a competing road? What about a city’s water supply? Or sewer infrastructure? Is someone going to come in and build a completely separate system?

        If you want that kind of libertarian utopia, feel free to visit Somalia and tell us how great it is.

      • Matthew Reece

        Of course someone else will build a different road and charge less. Or they may build a flying car and render roads obsolete. How do we know that there will even be cities as we know them without central governments? Who would forbid people from building private wells and septic tanks within certain geographical areas, as city governments do now? To dismiss something out of hand without even testing it is both arrogant and ignorant beyond my comprehension. Finally, Somalia is not a libertarian utopia, which you would know if you knew the slightest thing about anarcho-capitalism versus the situation in Somalia.

      • Roy Batty

        You clearly don’t live in reality. NOBODY is going to invest billions of dollars to build a new highway just so they can charge a few pennies less than a competing road. It’s simple economics. It would take decades to recover their investment.

      • Matthew Reece

        Objective logic trumps and defines subjective reality, not vice versa. Why must the highway cost billions of dollars? Even if it does, many people may crowdfund something that is too expensive for an individual to do. And as I said, there is no telling what devices people may invent to abolish the need for highways. Just this morning I read about a new hoverbike that will be available in 2017 that can hover over any kind of terrain. If that expands to cars, buses, freight trucks, etc. then roads are obsolete.

      • Artemisia2

        Let me know when all those freedumb lovers “do the right thing” for anyone but themselves. Then I’ll stop laughing.

      • Marjorie

        Except that they cannot stay ultra rich if there are no consumers left. Talk about short-sighted thinking.

      • naryaquid

        Marjorie, but that’s not a problem for them anymore, because they have “consumers” all over the WORLD now….They don’t need to keep an American Middle Class to buy good things from them anymore — They can sell them to the wealthy & middle classes in Europe, Australia (where the minimum wage is $15 an hour) and all over the world — That’s what globalization and “Free Trade” have allowed them to do.

    • Timothy Dannenhoffer

      Conservatives are people that can’t see 2 or 3 steps ahead. I have an idiot neighbor that votes Republican because of “those lazy people that don’t work on welfare and food stamps”. Conservatism sounds great to simpletons…until they wake up and wonder why so many things were done away with…they lack any foresight whatsoever. Many aren’t stupid but they sure seem to be much of the time as far as voting goes.

      • Sandy Greer

        Hard to tell, sometimes, if conservatives are a special kind of ‘stupid’ – or if they’re just Haters, at heart.

        ^^^I suspect the latter.

        It’s not a good day unless Party of No can deny somebody something: Conservatives see a hand up as a hand out – with every hand reaching into their pocket like it was their last dollar they’ve got a death grip on.

        And it appears – from the platform delineated above – Libertarians would deny pretty much everything, given half a chance.

        I never thought I’d say this, ’cause I lived through the 60s. But they’re a bunch of friggin’ radicals!

        Make sure you vote, this Nov 2014. Vote ’em the Hell outta Dodge!

      • joecrouse

        except those hand ups havent done any good and we have been giving them out to the same class of people and generationally to the same families for close to 80 years. year after year after year those hand outs have not become handups and have created muliple generations of folks who have decided that it is better to live off the government than it is to work hard. Making people to comfortable in thier misery ensures they will not move out of it. To put it nicely as Your hero Lyndon Johnson said “Ill have those ****** voting democrat for the next 100 years. ” They bought your votes and you dont even realize it.

      • Sandy Greer

        Well, looks like the Haters bought YOUR vote. Not only that, but YOU bought what they’re selling. And now here you are – getting a ‘hate on’ all by yourself – for folks less fortunate than you.

        Why, you even believe people not working are ‘comfortable’. Just SMH at that. You have no idea the good can be done when we accord people Dignity and Respect – instead of scorn and contempt, borne on the heels of Hate.

        And don’t pride yourself that you know anything of MY Heroes.

      • Bethany Quinn

        Really? That’s the welfare eligibility requirement??! Lazy, generation to generation….right! What an impractical statement ! If the government “gives” handouts, then the homeless must of squandered their government check… I know people on Medicaid and they are working and not lazy… and some of them are probably frying your fast food meals and selling you candy bars at gas stations.
        PS. I submit to you that you have zero idea where any of our tax dollars go! Who’s paying the police force, fire department and my god the black budget for the military

      • Bethany Quinn

        Who’s buying john boheners booze??? And congress’ life time health coverage and stamps?? Who pays any government official from a judge to a county assessor and you’re focused on blind people and mentally ill or handicapped people. Right! Why help them? It’s not your problem right? So just sit back in your lazyboy and judge. Nice knowing you…..

      • Marjorie

        And you know all this how? You have some proof of “generations of folks who have decided it is better to live off the government that it is to work hard”? I bet you don’t!

      • Artemisia2

        They pull this stuff off their rightie websites and act like it’s gospel.

      • grannieannie2

        Or they’re devoted FoxFreakFans; they believe in the Trickle Down Theory and don’t stop to smell the trickle down stuff.

      • Artemisia2

        You don’t like people very much, do you? Typical Republican. Alienating every demographic, one group at a time. Then you wonder why you keep losing elections….

      • joecrouse

        when the government takes 1/4 of my pay that i earn every pay check at the barrel of a gun and threat of imprisionment to subsidize the life of folks that do not contribute.. I have a problem with that.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        Such fucking bullshit. A FRACTION of your tax dollars goes to helping people on one form of welfare or another, and a FRACTION of that goes to people that are perfectly capable of providing for themselves. You’re an idiot. By the way, you don’t like it? Demand Walmart and McDonalds pay people better and then taxpayers can stop subsidizing those workers.

      • Marjorie.com

        How do they not contribute? Are you saying that some folks are immune from paying taxes – state taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, employment taxes, inheritance taxes, gasoline taxes, cigarette taxes, liquor taxes, etc., etc. If this is what you think, Joe, you are seriously misinformed or just plain fooled.

      • Artemisia2

        No kidding. Good thing you live in the USA. We pay the lowest taxes on the planet. Feel free to not pay taxes, but stay the f*ck off my sidewalk, don’t call the cops, don’t call the fire department, don’t let your kids go to school, and be sure to die on the street instead of using the emergency room. You get what you pay for.

      • Artemisia2

        p.s. The biggest chunk of your tax dollars goes to “corporate welfare,” that is, tax breaks for corporations. A tiny amount goes to social services like Welfare. But the ideology of hate likes to blame the poor. That’s giving a whole lot of power to the least powerful among us. That makes you a corporate SUCKER.

      • Kenneth C. Fingeret

        Hello joecrouse, You have a choice. You can go somewhere else where they “take your paycheck at the barrel of a gun and threaten to imprisonment” such as Somalia. Bon Voyage and enjoy your paradise.

    • Keiv Spare

      it doesn’t even sound good on paper

  • Bob Savino

    I support the repeal of the Koch brothers. Permanently and immediately.

    • Valerie

      This had to be the most frightening thing I’ve ever read. God help us and if He doesn’t exist, we better damned well help ourselves.

      • Michael D’oremi

        “In the seventeenth chapter of St. Luke, it is written that the kingdom of God is within man, not one man nor a group of men, but in all men! In you! You, the people, have the power, the power to create machines, the power to create happiness! You, the people, have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure. Then in the name of democracy, let us use that power. Let us all unite!” – Charlie Chaplin from the classic 1940 film The Great Dictator. (The greatest speech ever made)

      • Stephen Barlow

        Nice sentiment.

    • Holly

      amen.

    • Michael D’oremi

      As much as I hate saying it, if someone capped those guys to send a message… I wouldn’t lose sleep.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        Unfortunately it’s their side, the crazy side, that usually does the capping. Good, liberal, progressive people don’t cap!

      • Charles Vincent

        Really?

        Then how do you explain Leland Yee?

        You know that “Good, liberal, progressive” senator from California who supported gun control but was participating in an illegal arms trade of fully automatic weapons to organized crime.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        Can you name a truly liberal guy who kiilled based on his ideological beliefs or otherwise?

      • Charles Vincent

        Well Obama signed on the line to have 3 Americans killed with a drone and he is liberal. and Mr. Yee although not directly via the illegal arms trade the FBI has him up on by proxy certainly could have killed people. And one could argue that the fast and furious deaths directly linked to the weapons they let walk could be pinned on holder by proxy as well.

        And this kid that shot up the Arapahoe high school was an anti-gun left leaning liberal progressive.
        http://usnews DOT nbcnews DOT com/_news/2013/12/30/22112064-gunman-went-bowling-before-arapahoe-high-school-shooting-police-say?lite

        To say that only people on the right or left are responsible for killing is disingenuous at best.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        You conservatives are really dense. First of all, Obama is the president and not liberal at all. He is a moderate to right of center corporatist. Secondly those Americans were determined to do other Americans harm. They were traiterous Americans. And anyone paying attention KNOWS that as far as disgruntled conservatives and liberals go, 9 times out of 10 it’s a disgruntled conservative that gets violent to try to get his way somehow. Timothy McVeigh hated the US government for things like the handling of David Koresh at the Branch Davidian complex. Pro-lifers have taken out quite a few abortion doctors. Right wing kooks have gone into peaceful liberal Christian churches and killed people. Right wing kooks have mistaken Sikhs for Muslims and gone into their places of worship and massacred them. And as far as even rhetoric goes, many gun owning conservatives talk like they are itching to use their guns on people they disagree with. Gun owners are generally conservative. And you’re going to love this; not only are conservatives generally more violent than liberals, I’d add that they are less intelligent and more ignorant and misinformed. The one thing that comes to mind is your standard idiot that knows nothing about the two parties but votes Republican to hopefully one day not “pay taxes to take care of other people that can work and don’t want to”…which is such a microscopic fraction of what our tax dollars go to, especially if you consider that most people on one type of assistance or another needs the assistance because of one reason or another.

      • Charles Vincent

        “Secondly those Americans were determined to do other Americans harm.”

        No they weren’t the all the stuff the feds had was thin please pay attention to the white paper the Government released on this. Obama is a liberal just like his policies.

        Also John Wayne Gacy was a liberal democrat.
        and this guy also a liberal;
        http://www DOT powerlineblog DOT com/archives/2013/02/liberal-shooter-planned-mass-murder DOT php

        “9 times out of 10 it’s a disgruntled conservative that gets violent to try to get his way somehow. Timothy McVeigh”
        This is a baseless opinion until you front base statistics that correlate with it which I doubt you will find. In fact pretty much all your post is your opinion and not factual or credible.
        To steal a line from a fellow poster Ad Hominem is a sign of ignorance and lack of a credible argument or defeat.

      • Vanessa DavisHenry

        Tim Agree with most of what you are saying, though I am a Sane Gun owning REALIST, I am so disgusted by how these two men have gotten away with this. Yes they need to be taken for a long walk in the swamp!

      • Stephen Barlow

        Owning guns is not and has never been a problem. GUN PROLIFERATION and NRA propaganda IS and has ALWAYS BEEN the problem.

      • Vanessa DavisHenry

        Well said!

      • Stephen Barlow

        Thank you dear.

      • Artemisia2

        Well said! I get so sick of the “I know you are but what am I” nonsense, and they can’t even use a proper analogy. Just like kids in the schoolyard. Face it, conservatives, your party is F*&^ED.

      • RoseMcDonald

        Let’s be honest here. The single reason conservatives hate President Obama is the color of his skin.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        That may be true for some but they savaged Bill Clinton as well. To these knuckleheads any Democrat that might even think about raising taxes a little is a commie socialist Muslim. And it’s not even an original thought – it’s what they are told to believe by right wing think tanks via Faux Noize and moron AM wingnut radio pundits.

      • Stephen Barlow

        Clinton helped them by LYING about having sex with that woman. He also helped them by doing the same youthful political gaffe as Obama. He didn’t stand up to the Reds and put them to shame for their crimes against America.

        Clinton could have directed the DOJ to investigate every Republican and out their covered up crimes. If Obama had decided to investigate the TARP and crash participation of Hank Paulsen and the war crimes George Bush… the REDS would have would have SCREAMED for a minute and then shut the fuck up and gone to work in FEAR of exposure as participants in the recession planning.

      • xnerd

        Lets get real honest.. The only reason that conservatives hate Obama is because they are told that they should.!!!

        republican base is made of weak minded low I.Q racists to a large extent.

        And this base is dwindling fast.

      • Kenneth C. Fingeret

        Hello xnerd, If only it were true. There are more coming up every day. The old are passing away but the others will continue to increase their numbers as everything that makes a society function is taken away by the elites with their willing assistance.

      • Stephen Barlow

        This election is a poor timing and bad publicity problem for the Democrats. More Democratic seats are up for contention then Red seats. Plus the ‘success’ of the obstructionism that has kept Obama from really making America whole again after the Reds decimated the economy by 60%. The fact that most people don’t under stand Civics 101 and are subject to pummeling Conservative advertising pressure over reality 24/7… so EXPECT the American voter to ‘not care’ themselves into 2 more years of the same or actually VOTE the incumbents into power AGAIN and shoot themselves in the genitals once again.

      • Stephen Barlow

        The Serious trailer park racists who voted Republican BECAUSE Obama was Black, will have no Black Democrats to hate in 2016 and i expect a 4-8% defection for the hard liners who are still poor from no jobs bills and have sick children because they voted in Republican Governors who REFUSE to expand Medicaid FOR FREE!!!

        Although 5 states are seriously considering expanding it (before 2016 so as to get some positive press for re-election) 20 are hard an fast against it to this day. I am certain that by Christmas, when anther 5-8 million have signed up under the PPACA, reaching HALF the goal within a 18 months… more will see the ignorance of their Redpublican Racist choices and give those who need it most healthcare.

      • Somebody_Else

        And he’s not Republican. If he were republican they’d be constantly harping and crowing about his skin color as if it were some kind of major victory for the repubs.

      • Stephen Barlow

        Boehner might even put a Bill on the floor for a vote to ‘tan’ all the marble statues in the Rotunda with his favorite orange goo in commemoration of a Republican Negro in the White House.

      • Stephen Barlow

        The single most important reason to Republicans is racism. Being smarter than any two Republicans put together is another. Not to mention (but I will anyway) the proof of Obama’s successes IN THE FACE of absolute 100% party line obstructionism by the Conservative REDS.

        Oh, then there is his Mom pants, his golf game, taking less vacation than any Republican president and uh.. uh… Damn… uh… YEAH!!!

        His overcoming all that hate to RESTORE the American economy DESPITE zero functioning help from a ‘Shutdown the government’ House (of thieves) and a filibuster locked Senate. 9.9 MILLION NEW JOBS, record market numbers, with near zero inflation and unemployment @ Reagan levels.

        There is so much more than HALF his heritage to hate about Obama IF you are a Conservative REDpublican Tyrannist.

        Forgot about getting the troops home by Christmas this year. And in 2011.

      • Stephen Barlow

        They have even killed abortion doctors IN church!

      • Sohail Zafar

        Well said. I’m stealing this!

      • Kenneth C. Fingeret

        Hello Charles Vincent, If you actually believe that Obama is a liberal then you need to have your definition matched against reality. You sir live in a fantasy world in which most if not all who disagree with you are classified as “liberals”.

      • Carol Ann Hunigan Booher

        Obama is not for GIVING away our nation to the 1 percent. But the stupid CONserves would give these Kochroaches the nations wealth to starve the rest of us out

      • Charles Vincent

        Well aren’t you a peach he is following the same policies as bush and Clinton and bush sr etcetera. Sorry you have had the wool pulled over your eyes.

      • Stephen Barlow

        At least she doesn’t have her head completely up a sheep’s butt, running around in circle’s and calling it a new hat!!!

      • Stephen Barlow

        Obama is NOT FOLLOWING them. They are being FORCED upon America because the VOTERS got SCAMMED by koch Bros/TeaParty/Eviljellyhead Conservative propaganda. The same way the GErmans got conned and them threatened into following Der Reagan. I mean der Fuhrer.

        The House that was elected in 2010 and cemented in place by gerrymandering and voter intimidation, restriction, disenfranchisement and suppression is what is KEEPING Obama from creating twice as many jobs, eliminating the tax evasion by Corporations, moving forward on Immigration, Education, Military reduction, Demilitarizing the police nationwide, Undoing the damage of the Reagan agenda and Restoring the wealth of the middle class.

        NONE of those things are the Republican agenda, so AGAIN, you are caught LYING OUTRIGHT!

      • Charles Vincent

        Obama will not ever restore the middle class with his retarded policies. Nor will he restore it by creating part time minimum wage jobs wrt the 8 million jobs you were talking about.

      • YouKnowMe

        If you think Obama is a liberal, you’re too stupid to participate in this conversation.

      • Charles Vincent

        bwahahahahahaha the policies he has been pushing are classic liberal progressive legislation the aca and gun control have dominated his time in office. Keep crying your tears fuel my happiness machine.

      • Stephen Barlow

        Really?
        Like completely free education?
        Completely free healthcare?

        Complete oversight of all hazardous industry with complete Governmental control and Strict governmental approval of ALL hazardous industry operations?

        Enforcement of ALL enviromental regulation on the books today?

        The complete Nationalization of the energy industry?

        The complete Nationalization ofthe Communiccations industry?

        THOSE kind of Liberal Socialist agenda’s?

        He won’t even go after the banks for the trillions in profits made on the broken backs of the middle class.

      • Charles Vincent

        “Really?
        Like completely free education?
        Completely free healthcare?”

        These aren’t free, we all pay twice for them. once directly and once in taxes.

      • Stephen Barlow

        But they are not out of pocket and have been a Republican virtue until the Bush Administration began SOVIETIZING America.

      • Charles Vincent

        You apparently don’t have children there are plenty of things that cost money that aren’t school supplies or clothes. Such as lab fees for classes and the associated fees for electives kids take that come directly out of pocket. Then there are the taxes we pay like property tax levies that that institute for building new schools and for school programs and the like.

      • Charles Vincent

        “Complete oversight of all hazardous industry with complete
        Governmental control and Strict governmental approval of ALL hazardous
        industry operations?
        Enforcement of ALL enviromental regulation on the books today?
        The complete Nationalization of the energy industry?
        The complete Nationalization ofthe Communiccations industry?”

        Basically fascism, and the government cant enforce all; the laws and regulations on the books just like you cant grasp the problem you’re trying to discuss

      • Stephen Barlow

        But THAT is a PROGRESSIVE LIBERAL agenda. Which is WHAT YOU LIED about the President having.

        i have no idea WHA your last semi sentence means. Could you type in nongibberish for a lucid minute? or have the meds failed once again and it’s back o the institute for a new psychotropic cocktail?

      • Charles Vincent

        “He won’t even go after the banks for the trillions in profits made on the broken backs of the middle class.”

        You mean the trillions given in bailouts by the democrats to wall street fanny/freddie and the auto industry? Or does that not count since it was a liberal agenda promoting trickle down economics?

      • Stephen Barlow

        Saving EIGHT million jobs and having three massive loans PAID BACK AHEAD OF TIME with interest is not a bad investment.

        And what does the auto infustry haveto do with a conversation about banks.

        OH, BTW you insufferably deluded LIAR…
        TARP was a BUSH agenda bailout DIRECTLY to the banks and it too, has been paid back, along with the 85 million for AIG. but the BUSH EXPAND THE DEBT PARTS III and IV cost the American taxpayer money.

        The Recovery Act stimulus CREATED JOBS, solved problems waiting for Congressioal funding and boosted the stock market by 70% in 9 months. Obama put LIFE back in the American Economy instead of sucking it like a vampire as Bush’s PLAN worked to do.

      • Charles Vincent

        Saving 8 million jobs is irrelevant when there were ~16 million jobs lost. Not to mention that a lot of the jobs lost were middle income jobs. Furthermore the 8 million jobs is skewed because they don’t delineate the fact that many of those 8 million jobs were either minimum wage or part time or both which is the problem they replaces full time middle income jobs with minimum wage part time jobs.

      • Stephen Barlow

        But BUSH LOST ALL OF THOSE. OBAMA stopped the job losses and has 54 straight months of job GROWTH!!
        to the tune of 9.7 million REAL JOBS. Not the Boehner , ‘tax cuts for business’ bill with out a contract for any new jobs.

        Thank you Lord and Master George W Bush!!! ALL the job LOSSES are his. All the minimum wage jobs are his too, because Obama didn’t offshore 10 million GOOD PAYING MANUFACTURING CAREER JOBS to China, BUSH DID!

      • Charles Vincent

        Keep spinning Stevie you’re still in denial.

      • Stephen Barlow

        Iggy!

      • Charles Vincent

        I wasn’t talking about tarp I was talking about the too big too fail bailouts under the Obama administration. But since you mentioned it the Dodd/Frank act killed that bill cutting them money it would have given roughly in half.

      • Stephen Barlow

        Which EXACTLY were THOSE?

        Except for the EXTENDED WAR costs the Congress refuses to pay for WITHOUT more debt (meaning taxes), the interest (DEBT) on the BUSH/Bush/Reagan DEBT, and putting the OFFTHE BOOKS war expense ON THE BOOKS, the $787 STIMULUS is the only other investment Obama actually made.

        I don’t know WHAT you are hallucinating but chuck*uck,

        TARP was the bailout for banks dumbass!

      • Charles Vincent

        Yes bush expanded the debt and Obama has added another 7 trillion in debt and according to CBO projections he will add another three trillion to that debt by the end of his presidency to the tune of ten trillion dollars double what bush added and more that the total debt that was incurred bay all presidents from Washington to bush Jr.

      • Stephen Barlow

        And WITHOUT RAISING TAXES to pAY for it, Clinton will double it in 8 years and then Warren will double that. Once there is no longer an object to RACE HATE in the White House, theREDS will have no more motivation to obstruct and by 2018, we’ll have ALL of Obama’s agenda in place.

        Because even though your critters gerrymandered safe districts, the defections from the RACE HATE party will be massive. Coupled with the defections from people disgusted with all the lies and 1%ing the GOP does. They may not manage to survive this decade.

      • Charles Vincent

        keep dreaming stevie

      • Stephen Barlow

        Iggy

      • Stephen Barlow

        NO, the TRILLONS in mortgage interest AND resale revenue from reselling the foreclosed homes.

      • Stephen Barlow

        Thanks for PROVING ONCE AGAIN that you are a flat out LIAR.

        HOW can Obama be “… following the same policies as bush and Clinton and bush sr etcetera. Sorry you have had the wool pulled over your eyes.” AND be “pushing are classic liberal progressive legislation ” at the same time. They are EXACT opposites.

        I am getting TIRED of PROVING YOU A GOD DAMNED LAIR with your OWN WORDS time and time and time again.

      • Charles Vincent

        I proved it YouTube search chomsky on Obama recycles bush policies. Then realize all presidents have done this or will you just stay ignorant.

      • Charles Vincent

        I never said a word about clinton. Bush sr. Or reagan when I comes to obama recycling policies. Nice fabrication stevie way to lie about what I actually said.

      • Stephen Barlow

        “Charles Vincent >Carol Ann Hunigan Booher• a month ago

        Well aren’t you a peach he is following the same policies as bush and Clinton and bush sr etcetera. Sorry you have had the wool pulled over your eyes.”

        ALL you know how to DO is LIE!!!

        WHY do you THINK I put it IN QUOTATIONS you dolt? BECAUSE it IS a DIRECT QUOTE from you.

      • Charles Vincent

        Contextomy much Stevie? That’s was said in the same as my other reply directly to you they are a good ole boys club Obama recycled Bush policies Bush recycled Clinton policies etcetera. you’re still a liar in that you’re trying to ascribe a meaning I didn’t intend and you’re taking something I said to someone else and conflating with our conversation.

      • Stephen Barlow

        Iggy.

      • Stephen Barlow

        I quoted you. YOU lied about never saying it. I quoted it AGAIN PROVING you double down lie like a ROMNEY!!!

        And now your excuse for getting caught lying TWICE about the same thing is ANOTHER LIE.

        If you MEANT something ELSE, you would have SAID something ELSE. AND it NEVER matters WHERE you LIE, or WHOM you LIE to…

        The very fact that you LIED about LYING is enough for no one to bother with you.

        SO from now on, the ONLY response you will ever get from me is:

        IGGY.

        You are not persona non grata, you do NOT EVEN EXIST.

      • Charles Vincent

        Nice try Stevie but your subterfuge failed you are a crybaby. You tried to conflate a conversation a month ago(with someone else) with our conversation in the here and now.

        “SO from now on, the ONLY response you will ever get from me is:

        IGGY.

        You are not persona non grata, you do NOT EVEN EXIST.”

        You reply to me stupid not the other way around. retard.

      • Stephen Barlow

        IGGY.

      • Charles Vincent

        Wait I though you were not replying to my posts here??? Were you lying, or bluffing?

      • Stephen Barlow

        IGGY

      • Charles Vincent

        I see a liar that has no follow through, just empty threats.

      • Stephen Barlow

        Obama had three traitors killed because it would have cost too many Marines lives to extract them for trail in the US.

        I agree with your concept of ‘absolutes’ being faulty. Can I quote you next time you go on an “All liberals are…” rant of lies” ?

      • Charles Vincent

        liberals are just as much liars as those you talk about on the right.

      • Stephen Barlow

        Where’s a speck of proof? you seldom have any and it’s an game of Pacman to find it with you.

        How many ‘upvotes” do you have?

      • Charles Vincent

        Liberals lie about gun control all the time Allen Clifton is famous for it. You lie about that topic as well.

      • Charles Vincent

        Look and see for yourself Stevie you can click on my profile and see that stop being lazy.

      • Stephen Barlow

        a little more than one per comment. Discounting your own upvoting that’s about 100 yeas. Too bad they don’t tally DOWNVOTES.

      • Charles Vincent

        Sort of irrelevant to the topic. And it’s easy to get up votes when you are preaching to the choir.

      • Richard Shelter

        obama a liberal..?? please, dont make me laugh….

      • Charles Vincent

        He pushes liberal policies for his whole duration in office yeah that liberal obama.

      • Matthew Reece

        Mao Zedong.

      • Stephen Barlow

        ??? Meow Say Tongue?

      • Dan Miler

        Maybe you need to stay on topic and stop trying to change the subject.

      • Charles Vincent

        hmm that is on topic Obama not only recycles those programs is is in cahoots with the same monied interests as her assertion about the Koch brothers.

        Her assertion is that only the right does things bad and that we can only be saved by the infallible democrat/progressive/liberal agenda drink less koolaide Danny boy.

      • Dan Miler

        The story is about the Koch Brothers. This has nothing to do with Obama… Charlie Boy! LOL

      • Charles Vincent

        read the whole thread too which I had been replying danny boy.

      • Brad Daviet

        How much do you get paid to be a right wing troll? I could use the money, but I’m not sure if I could beat down my logic and ethics on such a regular basis. Kudos to you!

        Spending time on ACA and gun control just because we pay double what Canada does for healthcare and lots of kids are getting shot. Obama sounds like a monster. Glad you’re here to oppose all that.

      • Charles Vincent

        How much do you get paid to be a mouthpiece for a puppet master?

      • Brad Daviet

        Infinite payment in that your comeback is so unoriginal it’s laughable.

        Thanks for the smiles.

      • Brad Daviet

        I like numbers, let me share a few. Your roughly 3300 upvotes on 3200+ comments vs my 140 upvotes on 71 suggest I make twice as much sense as you. It also suggests I’m occasionally on here in my free time. You either have nothing but free time, or are a paid, propaganda spewing account. Got three pages of unrelated copy paste for that?

      • Charles Vincent

        I am not here to be Popular or In your case a yes man, I have been posting for about 2 years so yeah have a few but I have seen people with over 10k posts so your numbers have very little relevancy. I hardly think my posts directed at your posts assertion about the ACA and gun control are unrelated but nice try at the spin job. Sorry so much relevant information triggered that repressed cognitive dissonance you have. GG nubcake.

      • Brad Daviet

        Way to deny my claims. Wait… you didn’t. How much do they pay you per post? The Koch brothers I mean. It turns out they spend a lot of money to get their opinions out. Writers usually get paid for their work. 3000+ posts is enough to fill a novel.

        I can tell when you’re copy pasting because the sentences make sense. You copy paste facts, then ineptly write yourself that it was relevant, though you don’t reference how or why. You obviously have a lot of time on your hands. Keep explaining it to me. I want to understand. Just as well as you do. Why the murder rate increasing means we shouldn’t allow gun control. Go ahead.

      • Charles Vincent

        the. US homicide rate has been decreasing for 20 years. That’s according to the fbi homicide statistics. And if you drill down homicide by firearms has also been decreasing.

      • Brad Daviet

        The rate may be going down, which is a good thing, but the number is still going up and still much too high. We can do better by keeping the guns from getting to criminals and crazies.

      • Charles Vincent

        “but the number is still going up and still much too high”
        I presume you mean firearms homicides here. This is untrue homicide by firearms are also trending down.
        All you need to do is drill down in the data. In fact you can look at CDC data to see an expanded picture of this and its still going to be trending down.

      • Brad Daviet

        While the “rate” may be going down your own stats show the NUMBER of deaths and school shootings are increasing. We can do much better.

      • Charles Vincent

        OK school shootings have increased regardless of the gun control legislation. They have also coincidentally increased since the 1980’s when SSRI medications started being widely prescribed to children. You also seem to think that guns are the factor that causes violence. If thats is true you are wrong.
        Guns don’t cause violence they never have, people were violent when clubs and rocks and fists were the instruments of choice.

        Poverty causes violence, the disintegration of the family unit causes violence, and as long as you and people like you ignore the fact that people are inherently violent you will never even make a dent in violence in our culture.
        Why you ask? Simple because you choose to treat something that has only an ancillary relation to the root cause(s).

      • Brad Daviet

        Guns may not cause the violence, but they make violence more deadly. Solve poverty, yes, but also make it harder for those who don’t need them to get easily concealable handguns, or assault weapons. No gun control is needed on single shot rifles or shotguns.

      • Charles Vincent

        ” but also make it harder for those who don’t need them”

        Who exactly Doesn’t need them?

        ” to get easily concealable handguns, or assault weapons. No gun control is needed on single shot rifles or shotguns.”

        Rifles of all types are used in less than 2% of all Firearms related homicides, this is also in the FBI crime statistics.

        By far hand guns are used more in firearms related homicides that any other weapon.
        2011 total homicides were 12,664.
        2011 handgun homicides were 6,220 roughly half of all homicides for the year.
        Knives and cutting instruments came in next with 1,694 homicides roughly 12% of the total homicides in 2011.
        Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.) were 728 total homicides in 2011 roughly 6% of the total in 2011.
        Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) were
        496 homicides in 2011 roughly 4% of all homicides in 2011.
        Shotguns were 356 homicides in 2011 roughly 3% of all homicides in 2011.
        Rifles were 323 roughly 2% of the total as well in 2011.

      • Stephen Barlow

        Some truthful #’s there Chuck, but it only shows that if you are AGAINST handgun control you are FOR MORE GUN DEATHS, ARMED ROBBERIES and SUICIDES.

        No two ways down GUN PROLIFERATION STREET.

      • Charles Vincent

        “the only solution that has never been tried in America is the Australian
        solution on STEROIDS. ELIMINATE handgun possession,”

        This is flatly unconstitutional sorry boss(See the DC v Heller and Palmer SCOTUS cases)

        “register ALL guns
        nationally and have National firearms database so that EVER weapon has a
        ballistic sample available for comparison.”

        This is both illegal(see Firearms Owners Protection Act) and unconstitutional

      • Stephen Barlow

        Heller is a corruption of the constitution penned by a biased Republican zealot with horrific delusions of a Corporate State.

        HOw is a national Gun Registry unconstitutional? What ever the legislature deems necessary for the protection of the Citizen’s IS lawful under the Legislative powers granted in Article II.

        FOPA is not Unconstitutional, but can be repealed and replaced with an intelligent majority seated in Congress.

        Just like the VRA was ignorantly repealed by old white racists on SCOTUS. the PROOF is the immediate production of pre-prepared legislation in 32 States to restrict voting rights in minority neighborhoods and skew the voting rights of women in some states. Tell Me how THAT is NOT a National racist GOP strategy?

      • Charles Vincent

        Cry all you want they went through historical documents that explicitly state the second amendment is an individual right.
        I didn’t say a registry was unconstitutional I said it was illegal under the firearms owners protection act circa 1980. And it explicitly states no government agency can keep record or create a registry of any kind.
        As you say where is your proof of that you claim in the last paragraph.

      • Stephen Barlow

        Firearms access by children is BY D+FAR the most relevant factor. Eliminate the access, eliminate school shootings. Just as gun proliferation and easy access to killing tools are more responsible than any other factor in suicides and armed robberies.

      • Charles Vincent

        “the NUMBER of deaths”
        What deaths are increasing? This comment is ambiguous.

      • Stephen Barlow

        Only because you have no continuity between your ears and with a very narrow and specific agenda to promote… a .01% swing in a monsterous # of gun deaths is some huge victory for you. As if a dozen less gun deaths this year is any kind of TREND you can be proud of.

      • Stephen Barlow

        BEcause the population has been growing in inverse proportion to gun deaths… Funny how statistics tell you that adding water to a pond doesn’t diminish the amount of fish in it, but catching the same amount of fish each year amidst a growing fish population will show a reduction per capita of fish deaths… the ‘rate’ you are so happy with.

        Do you think 30,000 gun deaths a year is a ‘GOOD’ amount? The proper amount? A SATISFACTORY amount of gun himocides?

      • Charles Vincent

        “Do you think 30,000 gun deaths a year is a ‘GOOD’ amount? The proper amount? A SATISFACTORY amount of gun himocides?”

        So you’re saying there were 30,000 gun related homicides? When pray tell was that?
        Or are you trying to fluff the numbers with suicides?

      • Stephen Barlow

        “The second data set tracks non-fatal injuries by guns. According to the CDC, there were 73,505 non-fatal firearm injuries in 2010. (We will ignore an additional 13,851 non-fatal injuries from BB or pellet guns.)”

        87,000 wounded, 31, 000 DEAD annually. 118,000 lives impacted by PREVENTABLE and CONTROLABLE KILLING TOOLS EVERY YEAR…

        ABSOLUTE IRREFUTABLE FACT.

      • Stephen Barlow

        You lying c*nt! I SAID “”Do you think 30,000 gun deaths a year is a ‘GOOD’ amount? The proper amount? A SATISFACTORY amount of gun himocides?”

        If I meant MURDER MACHINE HOMOCIDES I would have said so.

        But answer the questions you deceitful fool!

        ARE YOU COMPLETELY SATISFIED that THIRTY ONE THOUSAND DEAD BY Killing Tools is ENOUGH for YOU?

      • Charles Vincent

        Did you or did you not equate the 30,000 deaths to being homicides?

      • Brad Daviet

        Good thing you don’t want to be popular. Keep it up another year you might have as many followers as posts you make per day.

      • Stephen Barlow

        YOu certainly achieve your goal of unpopularity!

        Define Cognitive dissonance as a single phrase please?

      • Charles Vincent

        Easy Stephan Barlow. You are a poster child for the disease.

      • Stephen Barlow

        So telling the TRUTH is a DISEASE to you?

      • Charles Vincent

        Your brand of the truth is because you only see what you want to see regardless of the facts.

      • Stephen Barlow

        Actually, your stats prove nothing. how many upvotes you give says nothing about who agrees with you.

      • Stephen Barlow

        I don’t think you get paid for such poor quality results Chuck. I mean after all, the Republicans are Responsible business folk. Responsible for BOTH the Great Depression and the prolonging of that recovery AND the Great Recession and the prolonging of This recovery.

        They would pay if you actually had a single intelligent voter agree with you!!! but you only have three other pinheaded needle dicks spewing the same vomit the gobbled up from Ultra RED blogs that was regurgitated by Fox News last time and first pooped in Republican mouths by SEI, Heritage Foundation and other Koch Brother’s funded groups.

        And for all the cash they spend bribing Republicans… they are losing legislatively. If Boehner gets nothing on the floor, nothing changes, which is what they are paying for.

      • Charles Vincent

        “Responsible for BOTH the Great Depression and the prolonging of that recover”

        Not really the fed is responsible for that, even the last fed chair(Bernake) acknowledges that.

        “the Great Recession and the prolonging of This recovery.”
        You mean the one cause by the democrats and heavily prolonged by them as well.

      • Stephen Barlow

        Was there a Fed in 1929? I think so, but I think their whole mission was much different then.

      • Charles Vincent

        The federal reserve act created the federal reserve on December 23, 1913. Further more their monetary policy is what deepened and prolonged the Great Depression. They did some of that by sucking ~1/3 of the money in circulation out of the economy between 1929 and 1932.

      • Charles Vincent

        Great no that I see your teeth I can knock them out with a few facts.

        Lets start with the ACA;

        It doesn’t solve the problem they what it to solve which is the high price of medical care it makes it worse.

        https://www DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=n_IODlKV4Ow

        Second
        people that compare the US healthcare system to countries like Canada
        don’t show the whole picture an example in the Canada case is that its
        driven by taxes;

        “About 70% of Canada’s health care funding is via
        the public system. A full 30% comes from private funding, divided
        approximately 50/50 between out-of-pocket funding and private
        insurance…”

        70% of the funding comes from taxes taken from
        people and used as subsidies to the provinces. their numbers don’t
        include that cost.

        Lets talk about gun control.

        First gun control isn’t about controlling guns its about controlling people.

        the following is an excerpt for a post I made on the topic in another thread;

        “Lets talk about Chicago’s firearms homicide rate

        In 2011 Chicago’s number of homicides by fire arm was 362. The total murders
        were 433.

        Compare

        that with the total homicides for the whole state of Illinois at 452,

        377 of those were from firearms. So the City of Chicago was responsible

        for 362 of the 377 the firearms homicides for the whole state and was

        433 of the 452 total homicides for the whole state.

        FBI table 20

        http://www DOT fbi DOT gov/about-us/cj…

        report on Chicago

        https://portal DOT chicagopolice.o…
        DOT pdf
        One little addendum to the data, Illinois under reported in 2011 Illinois3

        “3 Limited supplemental homicide data were received”.

        School shootings by decade.

        1764 – 1 in the whole century then 86 years with out one recorded shooting.

        1850’s – 5

        1860’s – 6

        1870’s – 12

        1880’s – 16

        1890’s – 11

        1900’s – 26

        1910’s – 9

        1920’s – 3

        1930’s – 12 NFA 1934

        1940’s – 13

        1950’s – 21

        1960’s – 17 OCCSSA 1968 and GCA 1968

        1970’s – 24

        1980’s – 30 UFA 1988

        1990’s – 35 GFSZA 1990 and BHVPA 1993, AWB 1994-2004(expired)

        2000’s – 48

        2010-2014 – 100; 103 if we include the ones you mentioned.

        Mass shootings since 1900;

        1900’s – 0

        1910’s – 2

        1920’s – 2

        1930’s – 9

        1940’s – 8

        1950’s – 1

        1960’s – 6

        1970’s – 13

        1980’s – 32 note SSRI’s started being prescribed to population in 1980

        1990’s – 42

        2000’s – 28

        2010-2013 – 14; this number is larger if you include 2014 numbers.

        So again I ask how exactly did these laws you want to pass(or that have been passed) stop the shootings?”

        Enjoy your koolaide nubcakes.

      • Stephen Barlow

        This guy is a true believer. I have met schizophrenic’s before and they REALLY BELIEVE the tin foil on the windows protects them from the Government shooting microwaves into their skulls to nanomanipulate their thoughts. this guy is no different and medication can’t help the poor duffus.

      • Stephen Barlow

        YOu are not replying to anything, you are just posting all your standard stock of Obamahate.

      • Stephen Barlow

        He only HAS one subject, promote Obamahate! NO matter what lies he needs to support.

      • Stephen Barlow

        NO I don’t. Please cite that story so I can be enlightened. Thanks Chuck.

      • Stephen Barlow

        Sorry to call you a liar, but Yee was indicted in an FBI sting operation. They were investigating “Shrimp Boy” Chow, a San Francisco mobster and the undercover agent on the case (who has been reprimanded for misconduct before) funneled money into his campaign fund and got him hooked into a Real Estate development deal with 49er’s QB Joe Montana.

        There are a SLEW of other defendants in this case and the FEDS are hiding evidence in the case citing “a threat to the security of other agents and operations”. A Federal judge will rule soon on whether the agent is sufficiently corrupt to dismiss the case in it’s entirety.

        There WERE NVER any gun, NO automatic weapons that Yee was involved with. As far as the “Shrimp Boy” and organized crime… THAT is the other operation the FBI is claiming an exception to the DISCOVERY Rule for.

        Perhaps you are just misinformed, but you have a noticeable RED bias and your ‘fact checking’ is EXACTLY as good as FOX news…

      • Charles Vincent

        ahh no proof to back your assertions Stevie no news articles no media coverage nodda nice opinion though.

      • regressive teaparty trash

        hey chuckles,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,here is an easy question:
        ======================================
        what is your opinion of the Koch brothers history ( including their fathers history) in relation to truly loving an America FOR all americans??

      • Charles Vincent

        More like a loaded question…

      • regressive teaparty trash

        how about the truncated version-
        Do U think KOCH brothers are good for all of America?

      • Charles Vincent

        they are not better or worse than their counterparts on the left. sort of balancing the scale so to speak.

      • regressive teaparty trash

        and whom do U view ( **as a singular/familial entity) being a ** “counterpart/balance” on the left?
        ========================================
        note- please look at entirety of historical ‘work’ of your answer BEFORE replying-
        example: Rockefeller…..

      • Charles Vincent

        Well the Rockefeller that made the fortune was a Philanthropist and thats documented history. His son however is a different story.
        As to the party(ies) on the left well I can point at a few in congress and people like Bloomberg, as well as media outlets like Huffpo and MSNBC and Forward progressives that spew backwards rhetoric and fear mongering.

      • regressive teaparty trash

        I asked for a singular ” counterbalance”
        ,,,singular Charles; do I need 2 provide a definition 2 U as2 what “singular” means?
        =======================================
        let us try again–
        who do U ( Charles) view as a SINGULAR entity comparable ( on the regressive right) to the KOCHs? George soros??? the atheist ( formerly jewish) PHILANTHROPIST ( a lot actually) who helped hungary from communism to capitalism ( economically ),,,,,,,,,,,,,,, he seems to be the only one that crybabies on the rightwing media bemoan

      • Charles Vincent

        Doesn’t matter if you only wanted one. Its called preponderance of evidence. But if it will help how about Actblue. They donate far more money to political campaigns than the Kochs do.

        https://www DOT opensecrets DOT org/orgs/list DOT php

        Note that Actblue is number one and the Koch industries is number 42

      • regressive teaparty trash

        shall we accumulate all the shadow political campaign donor companies that KOCH controls? Hmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ” preponderance of evidence”

      • Charles Vincent

        Posit them then. but make sure they are actually Corporate shels for the Kochs.

      • Charles Vincent

        It’s called preponderance of evidence.

      • youcantgetridofmethateasy

        What’s your frame of reference for posing that question? As a Raging Progressive that is only out for himself, or an OWS’er with a lit Molotov Cocktail in his hand?

      • regressive teaparty trash

        itismyball/ itisobamas fault never could comprehend complex queries–
        awww,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, u faw down / go “boom” again

      • youcantgetridofmethateasy

        “complex queries–“?? are you even capable?

      • Michael D’oremi

        V for Vendetta. If corrupt Kings ever pay for their dissident and decadent ways, they are usually in the form of beheading. Not by the fault of the people, but by the fault of the ruler who did not take care of his people. Read a history book.

      • Vanessa DavisHenry

        THANK YOU MICHEAL!

      • joecrouse

        id feel the same way about george soros.

      • mcallischris

        Just to enlighten some David and Charles Koch are listed at #6 on the top 100 list of billionaires, Sheldon Asdelson is Number 9, he is a big giver to the right wingers. And George Soros is # 25!!! not even top 20.

      • Charles Vincent

        And yes the koch brothers are ranked #58 on the top political money doners… and wouldnt you know that only 1 republican donor is in the top 20, and just 4 in the top 25.
        https://www DOT opensecrets DOT org/orgs/list DOT php

      • Stephen Barlow

        HOw much of George Soros’ contributions are hidden, anonymously and money laundered through super pacs?

        ZERO. He reports EVERY PENNY PUBLICLY.

      • Charles Vincent

        hearsay nothing more.

      • Stephen Barlow

        NO!! Actual FEC records Actual IRS records. it’s a flat out lie the Soros is corrupt.

      • Charles Vincent

        Then provide the records. Proof like you say provide the proof.

      • Artemisia2

        George Soros gives money based on what he thinks is right for our country, even if it means HE would pay more taxes. The Kochs are concerned with what is right for the Kochs, and they are obsessed with not paying their share of taxes. The analogy isn’t even close. Nice try, but this is a classic case of “apples and oranges.”

      • FlSam

        Then all that means is that you are a Glenn Beck devotee. Not something to be particularly proud of….

      • Stephen Barlow

        And HOW is He so special in your mind?

      • Phoenix Oakley

        What NEEDS to happen, is for all members of the 1% and their offspring to be executed. That kind of evil is a cancer that needs to be removed from this country. Sadly, I’m sure this is only a first step, but one that needs to be done.

      • Billy W

        Dude, you need to be locked up.

      • Stephen Barlow

        At least evaluated and medicated appropriately.

      • Kenneth C. Fingeret

        Hello Phoenix Oakley, My preference is to take their funds away through the inheritance tax system in which the maximum would be $ 1,000,000 total to be passed to relatives (not $ 1,000.000 to each relative). Donated to charity could not exceed 10% of the wealth and the rest passed onto the US of A. Since that will not happen it will most likely come to a revolution some time in the future. Why and where it starts is unimportant but it will be a mess that could be very destructive to humanity as a whole.

      • Stephen Barlow

        SOcial charity and the ballet or Opera are 2 different things. The solution is an Alternative Minimum BUSINESS tax of 12.5%. Close but the necessary business deductions like wages, materials, packaging, machinery, shipping and insurance.

        Tax advertising @ half the regular rate and eliminate special one time, single beneficiary tax exemptions like sales tax exemptions and real estate tax exemptions like the ones Tesla got from Nevada for the new battery plant.

        Individual deductions that are not usable by at least 25% of the filers should be eliminated. So should any third home, boat, plane, train or dressage horse deduction.

        then legislate that the corporate revenue, which is the same percentage of GDP as consumer spending should determine how much of a share Corporations need to pay into the Treasury. 70% Consumer spending means Corporate taxes are mandated @ 70% of income taxes.

        Adjust the rates biannually with a two year budget and the system equalizes itself over time, according to the economic conditions and not locked into some arbitrary and negotiated table that never provides for the Nation’s needs.

      • Brad Daviet

        It would be history repeating itself. My hope is enough rich people studied the French Revolution to support tax reform before it’s too late. I won’t start it, but I’m not getting caught on the side of the rich if the revolution does start, that’s for sure. I’m pretty sure generalizing against any group, even the rich, is immoral. Some have surely done more good than you and I ever will. Let’s judge them by the content of their character, which is a step up from them being completely above any judgement, as they are now.

      • Stephen Barlow

        I think only a jury of Billionaires would convict the brave soul who blew up their pipelines and refineries and train cars.

    • grannieannie2

      At the end of a rope would cover it nicely.

  • barkway

    So the stupid GOP stooges don’t even know their own masters? Oh, how marvelously telling that is!

  • real_world_truth

    What the Koch brothers and the wealthy who support this sort of agenda want is a return to serfdom and the complete eradication of a free society. Two classes is their goal; the wealthy and the rest of us as their property.

    • joecrouse

      free society? when the average person is regulated into submission by the interference of government? society hasnt been free in your OR my lifetime.

      • real_world_truth

        Let me guess, you are either a Libertarian or a member of the Tea Party. Well, for all the good it will do me to point out facts which you will ignore in favor of your opinion, let me give you two examples of what that free society, which you deny, has accomplished.

        We voted in a President in 2008 for the first time in eight years, by a grass roots campaign, rather than watch as a pretender bought, bartered and, in some opinions, outright stole not one, but two elections, then proceeded to lie his way into two wars and the near total destruction of our economy.

        We have begun to turn this country around by working diligently to end the rank discrimination against an entire group of our citizens, by speaking up. We aren’t quite there yet, but the tide is turning and soon all our LGBTQ brothers and sisters will know the freedom of marrying the consenting adult of their choice in any state. Who, but free people, could accomplish these things?

      • Marjorie

        Obviously you have not been paying attention to the rash of republican (tea party) legislation that has been recently passed. Like Lousiana criminalizing oral sex between even married heterosexual couples as a crime against nature. Is that not pretty severe interference from a side you appear to support?

      • Artemisia2

        Freedom and responsibility are two sides of the same coin. Libertarians, unfortunately, only want the “freedumb” part. Grow up, baby boy.

      • Roy Batty

        The average person is regulated into submission? Do you have ANYTHING to support such a ludicrous claim?

  • sherry06053

    Yes, but the SCOTUS seems to see things their way…what do we do about that? I don’t see any solutions offered.

    • Eva Cutler

      you are blind-sighted! get real!

      • Holly

        do you mean blind SIDED??

    • Grannysmovin

      Vote out those who refuse to Legislate and vote in those who will pass new laws to get BIG money out of elections and give people like the Koch Brothers and Adelson the same voice as you and I – one voice. There was a picture posted on a Democratic site of 5 stacks of 100 bills and the caption read “Dead Presidents Should Not Get A Vote”

  • Sandy Greer

    Wow. Is this what Libertarians are? I know it was 1980, but is this what Libertarians are all about – today? We’ve got some Libertarians here; maybe they could speak to that.

    Wikipedia says David Koch left the Libertarians in 1984 (for the GOP) over “eliminating all taxes” – I suspect he wouldn’t do that now. And does anybody know if Charles Koch is still Libertarian, or is now Republican, like his brother?

    This list is both shocking, and radical. To say the least. Even the FAA??? For criminy sake!

    I hope believers of this ideology never gain ascendancy.

    • Matthew Reece

      Real libertarians (not the fake ones that populate a large portion of the Libertarian Party) are anarcho-capitalists, and would eliminate all government in favor of free market institutions and voluntary competition.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        Which would be disastrous and have us revisit history.

      • Matthew Reece

        How so?

      • Daniel Tregant

        Free markets hurt everyone. Have you not seen what happens to those who grow our food abroad? How they’re given a pittance for the food so supermarkets can keep the prices down. Fair trade is still better.

      • Matthew Reece

        This is a straw man because the current system of corporate supermarkets and exploited laborers is not a free market.

      • Ryan

        But how would a free market be better from a human rights perspective? I’m genuinely curious. Why do you think things would improve if there was no government oversight? What do you cite as your evidence?

      • joecrouse

        human rights are an illusion the only right you actually have is to die all else are man made illusions.

      • Matthew Reece

        In a free market, no government is there to grant the 1% unfair advantages that they use to get richer at the expense of everyone else. The 1% would get no subsidies or bailouts that are ultimately stolen at gunpoint from the 99%, no regulations to help them stifle competitors with compliance costs that megacorporations can afford but small businesses cannot, and no corporations to shield them from liability for their crimes. The 99% would get to play on a level playing field in terms of starting a business and competing with the 1%, and would get to hold the 1% liable for their damages to people and property, just as the 99% are.

      • Ryan

        I think maybe the central issue with such a system is who owns the means to enforce protection of their property. Corporations that can enforce this will be able to get ahead, while people who don’t have the means of enforcement will fall behind.

      • Matthew Reece

        The protection of property would be provided by private defense agencies, as well as by armed property owners. There are no corporations in a stateless society, as corporations are legal shields created by governments for the wealthy. There would only be companies, voluntary associations of individuals working toward common goals, such as the aforementioned defense of private property. I expect this to be cheaper than the current government monopoly, as competition drives down prices.

      • Mike

        Sounds like Mad Max revisited! nice! go back to your thoughts, and stay there! You are shamefully naïve.

      • Matthew Reece

        Ad hominem is an admission of defeat and ignorance.

      • Mike

        Is that not what you are supplying? . . . Fallacies? lol take your Dunning-Kruger effect and shove it . . . ignorance yeah!

      • Mike

        What I see out of your “vision” are “fiefdoms” popping up here there and everywhere . . . Roads and society will go back to the land just as the pond eventually yields to eutrophication. Yeah that sounds like progress . . . Personally, I’ve enjoyed the discussion, however I trust that you are nowhere near any large buttons that may be pushed. If this is some strange manifestation of a Randian perspective, please re-read these books with an open mind next time. They and especially A. Rand are not very good for the world. You have intellect, now please focus it on the good!

      • mcallischris

        Name 10 people who have their money stolen at gunpoint. It is a phrase used to stir panic.

      • Matthew Reece

        Every person who is taxed is threatened with guns.

      • Mike

        No! The “big money” people would just BRIBE THEIR WAY into whatever they needed! Matthew you are so full of ideology that you miss all of the “shady” parts of the rich and their divisive ways. Yeah they “buy” their advantages! Wow you sir are as dense as a post . . .

      • Matthew Reece

        Who exactly are they going to bribe? The institutions that they currently bribe to gain their protections will be gone, and the new institutions will be viewed as shady and lose the support of the masses if they start handing out special favors. Remember that unlike a statist society, all institutions are accountable to customers in an anarchist society, as customers are free to opt out or support competing institutions.

      • Mike

        In situations such as these LAB SCENARIOS, your naiveté is massive! Thugs will always be thugs, If and when this happens (which I doubt) your summation is slanted to you POV, which for some unenlightened reason begs for anarchy. So, you wish there to be quasi organized cluster fucks? And you believe that money (or barter in a neo feudalistic America) is not going to go to the highest (and usually the nastiest) bidder? We will be no better off, even worse. As the Milton Freedman “trickle down” economics has so ungraciously taught us, rich people and big business could care less about ethics or anyone but their own agenda. You do not think that going forward that this “ethos” would not protract right along with the current status quo? What dreamland are you in? What are you designating for? The Book of Urizen? lol!!!

      • joecrouse

        except where documented explicitly in the constitution and would rein in the use of the Interstate commerce clause and the supremecy clause of the constitution. where most of the current government derives 99 percent of its power

  • wingnutbuster

    Hey all you rightie trolls, these are your gods, where are you to defend them? Where is Alex Jones on this board? Are you all too busy re-animating the corpse of Ronald Reagan? All you loyal followers of John Birch and the Paul Family, here’s your Dr. Mengele Plan all layed out…Why don’t they just hand out the Ebola Virus and bring back Polio? You keep talking about “freedom”, who do you think will run your lives and take your votes away but these genocidal monsters?

  • John Spriggs

    The brothers of treason … hang them by the neck as the law says let them rot on the gallows then let the congress its we the people not we the rich.

    • joecrouse

      they have done nothing resembling treason treason is a very strictly defined legal term which you are unfit to understand let alone comprehend.

  • madmike

    Some of this I like most of it sucks but that’s what we get now !

  • 09

    i can only imagine how these 2 nazis feel about minorities

    • betzinva

      You have something to support calling them Nazi’s other than the appalling ubiquitous use of the word Nazi by pinheads who don’t know what it means? National Socialist Party is your hint. The Koch’s support gay marriage, btw, not that you’ll ever read anything outside your own tiny minded press friends. Goethe warned about people like you.

      • Daniel Tregant

        So the supported gay marriage, whoopdefuckingdo. That one thing does not make them the good guys. If they had they’re way NO ONE would be able to marry, and the Nazis? Doesn’t matter what it means, their actions is what actually matters and in that they were never socialist. that was a front for their agenda of Eugenics.They were, and still are, more right wing than right wing and xenophobic.

      • betzinva

        Eugenics? really, I guess you think that the intellectual mother of Planned Parenthood is a product of the Koch brothers? Ms. Sanger was a eugenicist par excellence. Your selectivity in recall is charming. Big democrat party funder Soros is demonstrably a Nazi, yet eugenics are laid only at the door of the Kochs. Interesting straw men and ad hominem all, back it up with a bit more that typical talking points. (Before you accuse me of the same, videotape is forever and Soros admits to his perfidy).

  • Margaret Mills

    If that’s how they want to live, then why don’t they all just move to Somalia?

    • Matthew Reece

      Probably because there is a lot of religious fundamentalism there, as well as a lot of criminal gangs, rather than the one big criminal gang known as the United States federal government. But Somalia has improved in many ways since they toppled their government in 1991; it was terrible before that, and is now somewhat less terrible.

      • Depetriu

        I am sure the people living in fear of their lives from fundamentalist criminal mobs wanting to maim and/or kill them for petty crime will tell you that their lives have improved since the government was toppled.

      • Matthew Reece

        This was the case both before and after the government was toppled. But at least things have improved in an economic sense.

      • Depetriu

        Perhaps without a national government. But the regions of Puntland and Somaliland still have their own autonomous institutions, and there are also those blasted African Union troops still lurking around and keeping everyone down…

  • Pam Barone

    For me the creepiest part of all this is that the Koch Brothers attitudes come out of the heritage of the John Birch Society. Their grandfather was a founding member, and their family participated whole heartedly in the terrible blacklists and scandals of the era we call the MacCarthy period. This nation functions best when certain truths are clearly stated: the water, the land, the air, the people are not for individuals to usurp and use for their private enrichment at the expense of the earth or the plants, people and animals that live upon it.

    • betzinva

      So the gay marriage support is a John birch Thing? The donations to Harry Reid and Chuck Schumer is a John Birch Thing?

      • Daniel Tregant

        One point does not make them saints.

      • betzinva

        Never nominated them for sainthood. Where’d you get that idea from what I said? The hypocrisy toward the Kochs is dismissed by whether one likes them or not, IF you are honest in the analysis. John Birch is barked over and over, but why is Nazi not barked at the recipients of Soros’ largesse. THAT is the hypocritical crux of the biscuit. Sauce should serve both goose and gander and this is why the 2 party system sucks…..the saucier is in the hands of a partisan media.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        The Koch’s AND the Bush’s made a fortune doing business with Nazi Germany, what’s your fucking point? I’ll tell you what my point is: George Soros is contributing money to advance democracy and the Kochs are donating money to curtail and prevent democracy. Pretty big difference pinhead.

      • betzinva

        If you’re fond of people who rat out their neighbors, good for you; who destroy the currency of nations, good for you. As for advancing democracy, we don’t live in a Democracy and Soros isn’t a democrat anyway, he’s an oligarch socialist…..pinhead.

      • Mike

        Non sequitur points and obfuscating with a F. Zappaism thrown in . . . Smeh! Simple points! Kochs are REAL bad for democracy! Soros attempts to keep democracy afloat. Done deal.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        Is Harry Reid and Chuck Schumer pushing John Birch values? No, you stupid fucking idiot.

  • rossbro

    George W Bush did his best to remove inspectors and regulators from Fed Gov. When they retired or transferred out, he barred hiring replacements. Ask the people in West , Texas what they think of that.

    • Depetriu

      Some people would argue that this is an example of how private industry can’t learn from mistakes unless they actually make mistakes.

      • Matthew Reece

        No one can learn from mistakes unless they first make mistakes.

      • Depetriu

        Or rather, they would have the people believe it’s not a mistake, it’s just the due course of survival of the fittest weeding out the business that can’t thrive because of a lack of innovation or town-destroying explosions.

        And even then, in a purely profit-driven society, sometimes it’s best to just conducting business as usual after the condolence payments.

        Sorry, towns of West TX and Lac-Megantic QC, collateral damage is just natural!

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        Bull shit, you can learn from history and from seeing where and how others made mistakes… and what to do and what not to do…but that is obviously and precisely what libertarians are incapable of doing .

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        Kinda like what you expect the elderly to do after abolishing Social Security…”Oops I made a mistake, I should have saved for my retirement from that $3 an hour job. Now I’m old and decrepit and nobody will hire me”

      • Matthew Reece

        Trusting a violent criminal enterprise that steals your money to give it all back someday is a stupid mistake to make.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        Says a moron that would throw the baby out with the bath water and fails to see the good that government does and can do.

      • Matthew Reece

        There is no baby and there is no bathwater. There is only bilge water. Also, ad hominem is an admission of defeat and ignorance.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        You keep saying that I’m defeated but no majority is going to go along with your jerkoff ideology – not even close – so you may want to reevaluate who is defeated.

      • Matthew Reece

        A majority is not necessary; only an irate and tireless minority. If even 10% of people in an area were to refuse to be governed and be willing to use force to repel government agents, that area would become ungovernable.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        If the other 90% view you as unreasonable troublemakers then they will make you break it up and disperse. If you use violence they will put your unlawful asses down. Nobody buys the crack you are selling, stop trying to force it on others like scientology or Mormonism or Jehovah’s Witnesses.

  • GWB Mission Accomplished

    Another tea party favorite, Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul, insisted that the GOP must broaden its appeal in order to grow. The Republican Party, he said, cannot be a party of “fat cats, rich people and Wall Street.”

  • AL

    I read up on libertarianism a while back, and while I still think it’s lunacy, the tax revenue is instead replaced with user fee revenue – think toll roads. You pay for only that which you use, but you pay dearly for it.

    But, fall on hard times? You’re out of luck. And money.

    • Matthew Reece

      Ever heard of charity?

      • AL

        Yep. I’m sure the ballet and the symphonies will do quite well. Not so with your average joe’s chairty – food banks, battered women’s shetlers, AIDS assistance, healthcare in general.

      • Matthew Reece

        Without taxes and with voluntary competition driving down prices of services currently monopolized by governments, people will actually have money to give to charity.

      • PigeonPie

        But they won’t give to charity. That’s the rub, and you can’t see that. People would hoard their money to pay for the “user fees” that everything would have. Charities would mostly disappear. This is why Libertarianism is so flawed.

      • Matthew Reece

        I can’t see that because it is wrong. Americans give more to charity than any other people on Earth. The user fees will be less than the cost of government monopoly services, as competition will drive them down. This leaves people with more money to give to charitable causes, or to employ more people so that fewer people need charity.

      • PigeonPie

        If what you say is correct, there wouldn’t be offshore tax havens to hide money. Sorry, you are wrong. I used to buy into certain Libertarian principles, but I quickly realized that they wouldn’t work, or that Libertarians wanted the rules to apply to others, and not themselves.

      • Matthew Reece

        I advise you to look into real libertarianism (anarcho-capitalism), not the capital-L Party version. As for tax havens, do you not take whatever measures you can to keep robbers from stealing your valuables?

      • Depetriu

        I’m pretty sure that tax havens are more like lowercase-F feudalism, like a king that keeps his treasure away except to pay the mercenaries he hires to keep it safe. But it is technically all private.

        Of course, the King may decide to be charitable to help his people. Which would be good as long as those are the specific people that have the King’s favor without draining him of his treasure.

      • marckohler

        Anarchist? Thanks for telling us. Anarchism has been repudiated in every society in the history of human kind. There are NO anarchical societies. Humans create order. That is their intrinsic mammal instinct. Feudual societies had power concentrated with that group with the most “power” depending on how power is defined within the group. Your suggestions are childless and uninformed. You are asking for a form of government which cannot ever exist, and you are advocating the idea that humans can relate without laws—we all know exactly what kind of actions and processes will take place in that kind of environment. Anarchism is irrational. You might not be irrational, but your beliefs are.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        Question for you, since you are one of those fucking kooks…another libertarian cult kook proposed a $3.00 an hour job…PLEASE TELL ME what happens then? What is ANYONE going to do with $3.00 an hour? Work a half day and buy a Happy Meal? Where do they live? How do they get to the $3.00 an hour job?

      • Matthew Reece

        Insults are admissions of defeat and stupidity.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        Insults are all I can muster when someone is as ignorant, naive, idiotic and hopeless as you are. You are a kook and nothing I or anybody says will make you not a kook. I’m not defeated – I asked you a question you failed to answer – tell me how a person would benefit from a $3.00 an hour job?

      • PigeonPie

        Timothy, Matthew is a Libertarian in name only. He espouses all their theories and talking points, but would be the first one screaming if those laws ever took hold.

        Don’t insult him, feel sorry for him, that he thinks total de-regulation would help people. Total de-regulation is called anarchy. Matthew doesn’t understand that.

      • Matthew Reece

        As an anarchist, I think I do understand that. Total de-regulation would help people because regulations are written to favor the 1%, as they are the ones with the money to bribe the politicians and regulators. Government regulations also prevent free market methods of dealing with problems, such as suing polluters for property damage.

      • Depetriu

        “Government regulations also prevent free market methods of dealing with problems, such as suing polluters for property damage.”

        The “free marketeers” will be able to hold sway in mitigation proceedings because they will (stilll!) be able to afford the best lawyers. The proceedings will ultimately serve to remind their employees in a most feudalistic manner that they are employed because the employer voluntarily chooses to make profit off of them.

        Much like the good ol’ days, little if any got done until the bodies piled up too high.

      • PigeonPie

        Matthew, you are wrong, but there is nothing to be gained conversing with someone like you who can never admit that fact. Please go live an Anarchist lifestyle, and when you are one of the many destroyed by it, you will realize way too late how wrong you are.

        Have a great life, sir.

      • Matthew Reece

        Having a $3/hr job is better than having no job because an employer cannot afford to hire someone at a higher minimum wage. It also gives one working experience which can lead to more lucrative employment. Also note that $3 was a nice hourly wage back before the gold standard was ended and the Federal Reserve debased the currency. For example, twelve silver quarters from 1964 are worth $43.37 in melt value today.

      • Depetriu

        With all the record profits employers are making, surely they would realize that paying their employees more would actually enhance their purchasing power, and thus recirculate the profit generated from the purchases they make with their pay back up to them.

        But a purely profit-focused society would tempt even more employers into short-term profit-oriented thinking backed up by the feudalistic argument mentioned above: “Would you rather have this minimum wage job or be back out on the street?” This was indeed the motive that drove the employers exploiting the immigrants that came for the American Dream.

        Opportunities for more lucrative employment would end up continuing to be based primarily on patronage rather than the contents of the resume.

        Basing an economy on a hard-fixed commodities and removing all regulation makes them extremely vulnerable to speculators as well as sudden discoveries. The only people that would be unhurt by the rampant instability would be the people that can afford to stay above it: the Kings with their high finances.

        And that the constant deflation that would be a supposed benefit of a fixed exchange would make loans much more expensive to pay off over time, which would hurt new enterpreneurs who don’t have THAT SPECIAL PRODUCT/SERVICE (caps for emphasis) immediately in our fast-paced world. The private banks see that you don’t have the next big thing immediately? Too bad, you gotta pay up.

        And before we trot out that tired, old Weimar/Zimbabwe slippery slope, I might also add that the South Koreans are doing quite fine with their 700:1 exchange rate, or the Vietnamese with their 21108+:1 as of writing…

      • joecrouse

        except that paying them more when people will do the job for less is fiscical mismanagement and is illegal.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        Are you going to step up and take one of those $3 or $2 an hour jobs when employers realize they can get away with that and have a pool of desperate people that will have to say “well, I will have to live on the street but at least I can eat something occasionally?” Libertarians: Clueless naive nerds.

      • Matthew Reece

        If insults are all you can muster, then you admit to having no rational arguments and are therefore the loser of the argument.

      • Bethany Quinn

        Awww are you talking about joe? Insulting handicapped people who are lazy from generation to generation? Sometimes the truth is very hateful isn’t it?

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        only to those who deserve aspersions

      • joecrouse

        Quite simply the minimum wage sets a floor by which the goods and services in the service industry MUST exceed. Without a minimum wage you would see that instead of a floor of minimum price for goods and service. you would see that markets for low priced low quality goods WOULD reduce prices. You would also see that the job market would renegotiate by concensus how valueable the individual job is.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        Yeah? So how long are YOU willing to work for $2 or $3 an hour while the market gets around to correcting itself?

      • Cemetery Girl

        I’m trying to understand this competition that will exist, and I’m not seeing how this will realistically work. Let’s take water. A decent portion of us pay for water and sewage, typically to our city. Government involvement is abolished, so we now have private water and sewage providers (for the sake of argument we will have the services linked instead of the theory they could be obtained seperately, which without regulation would be realistic). Let’s say “Waterworks” is your closest provider, but “Waterman” is cheaper but 30 miles away. It would be reasonable to assume you’d go cheaper, thus keeping the market in check. But what about the pipes? Realistically, a water service is going to include the use of their lines in their price structure (or more likely charge a little fee, maybe $10), but Waterworks won’t be as kind if you are using their lines to access Waterman services. You’re either going to get a steep fee from Waterworks or have to run your own line (and deal with future upkeep), neither of which makes using Waterman worth the expense. So you are still forced into a monopoly to access a basic need. I just see everything heading down this path if regulation is abolished and everything (including all infatructure) is owned and opporated by private entities.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        Low income people don’t pay much taxes – they’ll only earn less money in your kooky world.

      • joecrouse

        or they will be forced to not be poor through ingenuity hard work and intelligent planning. Of course it means that idiots wont take up a space in college wasting it on an english major.

      • vendetta

        Joecrouse….What a sad little man you are. With your belittling remarks to others to make your self feel better. A lot of people work hard in a system that is rigged by intestinal parasites like the koch brothers who have inherited there money and never worked a day in there pathetic life yet feel entitled to an overlordship of the country and her inhabitants. The koch brothers and those like them along with there minions in the GOP and false news may not be guilty of treason but what they are doing fits the description of sedition and an attempted coup.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        You’re not kidding – you’re a kook.

      • Matthew Reece

        Ad hominem is an admission of defeat and ignorance.

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        no it isnt

      • Daniel Tregant

        Which would not be able to operate under the conditions laid out by this manifesto. Have you really not seen the consequences of what would happen if this came to pass?

  • Matthew Reece

    If we did everything on that list, we would be well on our way to a truly free and stateless society, and private enterprise would step in to perform the necessary services much more efficiently than government has. It might even rival the difference between slaves picking cotton and combine harvesters picking cotton.

    • Timothy Dannenhoffer

      You’re kidding right?

      • Matthew Reece

        I never kid.

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        kidding is unavailable to matthew
        ——————————————————
        ergo: unhappiness

    • Depetriu

      The only “difference” is the profit margins for the cotton plantation owners. For the slaves, well, they didn’t see much difference. The free market recognized that, and decided that would be the best way to help introduce immigrants to the American Dream at the turn of the century.

      The “evil feds’ Civil War” didn’t matter when the slave population got drastically expanded with all the warm bodies seeking a new life away from famine and feudalism.

      But hey, they did get food and shelter, and at least the private enterprises did eventually make the necessary improvements after thousands of men, women and children, died of diseases and factory disasters…

    • moe/larry & curly keys

      and the top 2% would morph into the top 1%
      =========================================
      keep crying matt

      • Matthew Reece

        Wrong. The 1% would be brought down because all of the unfair advantages they get from government (like corporate law, regulatory capture, patent law, bailouts, etc.) would cease to be available.

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        wrong– they have such power that they wouldn’t allow their loss of power–
        remember: absolute power power corrupts ” absolutely”
        ====================================
        however; in your utopian delusional ‘world’…………………………. U remain correct

      • Matthew Reece

        Straw man fallacy. They do not have absolute power, nor will they be in a position to “allow” anything if the government is defeated by technology or anarchists’ force of arms.

        You are the delusional utopian for believing in statism.

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        really??????
        WOW!!! I forgot the supreme power of Matthews “IF”
        “IF” !!! I like that!!!
        ======================================
        so potent; so all-encompassing: “if”!!!

  • Doc Wu

    Basically, they want the repeal of anything that prevents the rich people like them from owning everything and charging the little people to use it. They want a return to a feudal system, with them as Kings.

  • mikeb666

    If that agenda was passed in its entirety, government would close all together.. LOL. No taxes for anyone, means no military, no FBI, no CIA, no border patrol, fire departments police or sheriffs offices, (do it yourself policing) the bigger you gun the more in charge you’ll be. Get a tank and some RPG’s start your own kingdom, slavery in all forms would return. No TSA, no roads fixed, poisoning of rivers and streams, collapse of infrastructure, closing of all national parks, no income for the old, infirm, sick or handicapped, they will litter the streets. think we have a homeless problem now. It’s a good deal for the rich since it means a return to feudalism. LOL

    • joecrouse

      actuall it means a return to requiring the individual to be responsible for ones self. and the limited government would STILL be required to provide for the common defense. Meaning it would still have to defend the boarder and woulds till ahve the militar. those are required under the constitution, You would need a set of taxes on Imports. as they are a way to tax use without taxing the individual.

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        You assume our founding fathers that wrote the Constitution were a united bunch of libertarians – they weren’t.

      • Amy Gravelle

        So you would be OK with the elderly and disabled living in the streets, or would you bring back the work houses?

  • PitoDaddy

    Just like the Allen said in his article, this is really scary. I first ran across this Koch brother hit list on our country a couple of years ago which explains a lot of what has largely been happening to our country over the past few decades. The Libertarians realized that they could really gain a viable position among the two major parties, so in the 1980s they began to commandeer the party closest to their ideology: the GOP. Grover Norquist introduced his bogus “Taxpayer Protection Pledge” in the mid 1980s which is a thinly veiled scheme to further enrich the wealthy, and drain the US Treasury of funds so that the GOP can launch their attack on social programs for the middle class and the poor, which has already started. Right after the Dems won the midterm elections in 2006 the GOP-controlled Congress passed a bill that was signed by President Bush that requires the US Postal Service (Koch brothers’ hit list agency) to pay about $5 billion a year toward future postal workers’ pensions and healthcare fund.

    They must pay a total of about $50 billion by 2017. If they can’t do it (and they can’t) I believe that the post office will then be on some track for dissolution and privatization. And what about those accounts that the post office has been paying into? I wonder who’s gonna get their hands on that money? Rhetorical question. This is all part of the Koch brothers’ plan to destroy unions and public sector jobs. I have tried to wake up some of my hook, line, and sinker devout GOP-voting associates about these facts, but it was futile, and these are “educated” middle class voters. They refuse to except the fact that every time they vote for a Republican who wins an election they are helping the Koch brothers take all of us to neo-feudalistic society. They have been totally brain washed. They’re like the band that continues to play on the sinking Titanic, while the Koch brothers and their shills sail by (smiling at the rest of us) on another ship loaded with the spoils.

    We (the working class) are literally in a fight for our survival and more people had better wake the hell up and stop being overly distracted by sports and entertainment. We have to stop this habit of not voting in the midterms and flood the voting polls in every future election. The GOP will have their voter suppression efforts on steroids from now on. If they’re able to steal their way into the White House, the House, and the Senate at the same time, God help us all. The Ryan Budget will be waiting for a GOP president’s signature.

    • joecrouse

      and? the postal service is outdated and makes 80 percent of its revenue on junk mail and bulk mail

      • Timothy Dannenhoffer

        That businesses still feel the need to send so what exactly is your point?

    • marckohler

      THANK YOU!!!

  • CharlieSD

    I think everything listed there is a reasonable and laudable goal. What’s the problem?

    • Timothy Dannenhoffer

      Reasonable to a pinhead.

      • CharlieSD

        Name calling, already?

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        pinhead is not accurate
        ===================================
        atavistic lachrymose cretin seems better

    • julie sipes

      That is something only a “sociopath” would say….

      • CharlieSD

        My apologies, Dr. Sipes (you are a psychiatrist,yes?) but you would be in error. I am not a sociopath, therefore your statement is false.

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        I agree———– U quite possibly are a small dicked ( and smaller brained ) white trash regressive religious( see: Christian VOODOO/superstition) crybaby who we all enjoy watching U cry as your loser white elitist trash becomes history

    • giankeys luvs shemale porn

      there Is no problem; they have been exposed as white trash regressive scumbags who suckle the philosophy of stalin and hitler and glenn beck

  • joecrouse

    umm I dont see a problem.

    Sounds like a pretty good idea actually

    • Timothy Dannenhoffer

      Sounds good to a clueless moronic sociopath.

    • giankeys luvs shemale porn

      joe has no electric as he is a southern white trash regressive who eats ducks and go to a tax free evangelical church every sunday for communion

  • Bob Eckert

    Everything on this list would have no impact on the 1%, they want to rule us as slaves.

  • ChainUp

    They are the most insidious threat to our democracy in generations.

  • Guest

    The Duke brothers in “Trading Places” always comes to mind when I read about these guys. Scheming, vicious narcissists.

  • pamajoh

    The Duke brothers in the movie ” Trading Places” always come to mind when I read about these guys. Scheming, vicious, power hungry narcissists.

    • julie sipes

      Yes, the Duke brothers. You nailed it!

  • nidur

    Please vote! You may not care about politics, but it cares about you. If these guys get their way, life will get much more difficult.

  • marckohler

    These comments agree with the dangerous threat that these brothers are to America, and we wring our hands in despair. The one think that none of them mention is that the Koch brothers have won, and continue to win, and that there is nothing on the horizon in organization or even in existence which can stop them. We have suffered a holocaust, and no one seems to notice. This started long ago when Prescott Bush and Harriman were indicted, and paid fines for running a Nazi bank in the US. When Eisenhower became President, Allen Dulles sued for Prescott to get back the fines with interest while Prescott’s son was running a CIA Texan Oil Company. David’s Koch’s father was a founder of the John Birch, and that is where he finds the truth that is dictating his actions. With the American Legislative Exchange Council(ALEC) successfully taking over state legislatures throughout the country, is ia time to all about America After Fascism (AAF). Most likely, we will never see this situation change. Dulles killed all hopes for the American Dream when he ordered and carried out the assassination of JFK, which was followed by the killing of Malcolm X MLK, RFK and the attempted murder of Gov. George Wallace. There is blood on there Koch’s hands, and they are laughing all the way to the bank.

  • richard

    From the looks of these comments, I’m thinking that a significant percentage of conservatives were home-schooled……………………..by cabbages.

    • moe/larry & curly keys

      that would explain the stench

  • I’m utterly terrified that these people are allowed to have any measure of influence at all in our government.

  • Re: conservatives–Once you realize the good ones are sociopaths and the bad ones are psychopaths, everything starts to make sense.
    🙂

  • The Koch Bothers: Somalia–Love It or Leave It!!!!

  • Ardee Jo

    A list of all that decent empathic humans hold dear demolished by sociopaths. It’s Canada Day on July 1st. Life’s not perfect here but this makes me pretty proud.

  • Kenneth C. Fingeret

    Hello Allen Clifton, If there were any family that deserves the title of evil I would have to put the Koch family either at the top or just under it.Their legacy will be the destruction of at least the US of A if not more of the countries of the world.

  • Carol Ann Hunigan Booher

    Sad thing is the old bastards will live from now on. The can buy a new heart or liver or whatever the need to live. But do not think others should even have basic health care

  • David Beckman

    As I read the comments here I had to wonder who believes that 100% employment is even possible and since it isn’t what would you suggest we do with the surplus population. In order for capitalism to work it takes a mix of socialism. I think it was well proven by the French the result of power by the wealthy while the rest starve and don’t think because you are upper class you are immune because they want you too.

    • Timothy Dannenhoffer

      Precisely. You get it. Every time I talk to a libertarian I ask them what they think we should do when outsourcing and technology creates an environment in which there are only enough jobs for half the population.

      We have to start thinking about that because there are not enough good jobs out there for everyone now.

      And every time I witness a person shrug their shoulders and essentially say “f*!# them” I hope they are among the first people whose heads are separated from their bodies when people have had enough suffering.

  • DerpDestroyer

    Can’t wait until Anonymous decides to take action against Charles and David Koch!

  • Robert E Michel

    This all sounds so crazy. Its almost unbelievable until you understand that the Koch family is itself crazy from the devil himself. Read their history from their father to present day. Including their children. CRAZY!!!

  • wethepep

    This sounds like treason to me! And it also sounds like a small group of people trying to take over our country! They belong in JAIL… Have they ever did anything for this country?

  • hdevo

    These are lies and you all brought the commie propaganda .The Dems fear the Koch’s because they stand for freedom .The dems support terrorist and anybody who believes in freedom thats why the commie dems attack religion wake up suckers your being played

    • Timothy Dannenhoffer

      Freedom? Freedom to trash nature and the environment for a buck? Freedom to bust unions? Freedom to keep minimum wage ridiculously low and pay more and more people minimum wage…if their jobs haven’t been outsourced for the freedom of the rich to pay poverty wages and make even more money? The freedom to lie to the American people about Social Security going bankrupt so that the elderly don’t have enough money to live on? Republican’s definition of freedom is sick and twisted.

  • Nadine Faber

    I don’t know if this is the truth or BS, however, the dems have alot of the same kinds of intents. Intent to destroy our economy, the middle-class, steal from the working class to give to those who are not, having Soro’s fund a lot of their actions and groups and plants to stir up and cause continuation of “hate, race card…” lots of distractions while they continue to destroy our way of life and our Constitutional Rights….. Like the guy trying to give away billions for those who push global warming while pushing people into situtations where they have no income, no means of getting an income because the government and the big money people have put a lock on the environment and survial of the human race on the back burner (obamacare cutting off access to quality and affordable care, restrictions and overreach by the government to kill jobs and the job market with reg’s by EPA causing bankrupcty and policies that are unobtainable by anyone….). It is not them or us, it should be Americans and the government working together instead we have a bunch of self-serving individuals and power grabs by politicians, EPA, IRS, FCC, DOJ…. who are trampling all over our rights and freedoms to control the American People. Wake up and quit blaming or looking to the Koch Brothers, you can look at Soro’s, Gaits, the idiot who is willing to spend billions to kill access to cheap and accessible energy resources that will retain our standard of living (electronics, heat, cooking, hot water…. sending us back to the old days of wood stoves, ops the EPA is planning to take that away from people who have no other forms of heat or cooking…. ) and those who are funding a lot more than the Reps are getting that is for sure. I don’t want our Country to be a third world Country and we are heading there fast because these guys are using obama to destroy our way of life. WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • dghealy

    can we talk about what Obama was doing and believed 34 years ago/ it would be pertinent. ” It’s also interesting considering the Koch brothers – and their vast fortunes – are the driving forces behind much of what the Republican party has been supporting for the last several years”

    really? got some evidence?

  • Grand1

    Abolish all government welfare, relief projects, and ‘aid to the poor ‘ and watch the crime rate skyrocket. But there will be no police to stop it.

  • Thomas Harper

    And one of the oddest aspects is that they became billionaires under the system(s) they are trying so vehemently to destroy. Are they just not very bright? Are they delusional? I don’t think either one. I think they are simply the most extreme examples of “I got mine, so screw the rest of you” that we’ve seen.

  • ChadB

    Who is John Galt?

  • Stephen Barlow

    God Bless ST. Bernie! I would vote for him if he ran for President, but if he does, he’ll do to Hillary what Perot did to General George the 1st in ’92 against William The Conqueror. I think he will run in the primaries and withdraw, throwing his voted to Clinton.

    Even if they nominate another Bush (Jeb) for 2016, the Republicans will be subject to 3 campaign themes (IF the Democrats can actually BE intelligent enough to UNITE behind them.

    1) List the Republicans lies of the last 17 years. ALL OF THEM, and point out that a RED vote will get you more and more of what RED states like Kansas, FLorida, North Carolina and Texas and Louisiana have given their working class citizens. How none of the ‘death panels’, job losses, medical harm, healthcare cost explosions or business closures EVER happened.

    2) Point out the family history of fraud, deceit and failure that ARE the Bush family legacy. How both businesseand governmental Economies SUFFER GREATLY under Bush leadership and how bank fraud and collapse seems to be the family disease. how BOTH father and son milked the Treasury through Real Estate, Mortgage and Bank corruption and criminal activity allowed via deregulation AND blind lack of oversight.

    3) Remind them that if Jeb Bush hadn’t PERSONALLY thrown the election for his brother, 911 may not have happened, Iraq certainly would NOT have happened and neither would the Recession labeled DEPRESSION of the world economy.

    Close all the ads with, “If you want MORE of what the Republicans did to America since Clinton left a surplus, then vote Republican. if you want prosperity like Clinton gave you, Vote for Clinton!!”

  • saganhill

    I don’t understand how these assholes are allowed to live and live in this country? They do nothing but pollute, rape, and pillage our lands and yet they are allowed to live free or live at all?

  • Bob Kellerman

    Does not sound like America to me!

  • disqus_kjRR32tL7n

    I must be libertarian because I would support items on that list except the privatization of roads. Go Koch brother, maybe their money can get our country out of the shitter and back on track to being the greates country on God’s green earth.

  • foxfilmr

    Run Bernie Run! We need a president like you!

  • LeeToo

    apparently, the koch boys found a more efficient way to realize their goals.
    #thanksabunchscotus