The Truth About Christianity and the Faithlessness of the Conservative Christian

paul-ryan-church-1Whenever conservatives bring up this idea that they’re somehow the party that encompasses “Christian values,” I usually either just shake my head or laugh.  It all depends on my mood, and the outrageousness of whatever it is that I just heard.

But hardly anything about conservative ideology reflects true “Christian” values.

Sure, some of them cling to a handful of excerpts from the Bible, but simply following the Bible does not make someone a Christian.  And if you’re going to handpick a few parts of the Bible to follow, while ignoring the rest, that also makes you a hypocrite.

Though that’s an argument for another time.

But I think one of the things that fascinates me most about conservatives who claim to be Christians is their utter lack of faith.  How powerless and weak they seem to believe that God is.

I mean, isn’t that why they’re so paranoid, hateful and judgmental?

It doesn’t make any sense to me for someone to say, “I have faith that God has a plan….” then to go out and criticize, or be paranoid of, damn near everything.

What’s there to be so paranoid about if you believe “God has a plan?”  Because if someone believes that, wouldn’t that then mean what they fear is derived from their stance against God’s plan instead of for it?  Or a lack of faith in God entirely?

Because if you believe what’s going on right now in our lives (and country) “doesn’t seem right,” who’s to say it’s not “all part of God’s plan?”  Or are these people trying to surmise that they know more about Christianity, and what is or isn’t morally acceptable, than God?

It’s like people who pray, then don’t anticipate their prayers being answered.  What’s the point?  And isn’t prayer for selfish reasons essentially someone trying to tell God what to do?

None of it makes sense.

These conservative Christians like to portray themselves as the “moral majority fighting for Christian values.”  Yet, not only do their policies not match the teachings of Jesus Christ, but they also seem to lack all faith in the “plan” that they claim God has for them.

But this is the question I have for conservative Christians: If you have such a strong faith in God, then why do you seem so fearful and paranoid of everything?  

Because the truth is, fear and paranoia are bred from a lack of faith – not the abundance of it.


Allen Clifton

Allen Clifton is a native Texan who now lives in the Austin area. He has a degree in Political Science from Sam Houston State University. Allen is a co-founder of Forward Progressives and creator of the popular Right Off A Cliff column and Facebook page. Be sure to follow Allen on Twitter and Facebook, and subscribe to his channel on YouTube as well.

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  • pal

    Mr. Clifton, I view the world much in the same way you do. I’ve taught my children from the Bible when they were little right from wrong. Problem is, family and pretty much the whole area I live in, we are surrounded by these ignorant, arrogant, “Christian” religious types that you constantly point out. My faith says basically, live to help the less fortunate. I hope more people will begin to “hear” what Christmas taught. God has blessed you as a writer my good man..

    • pal

      What Christ taught I mean…stupid auto correct. .

      • BobLoblaw

        You can edit your posts.

    • SluttyMary

      If you are using the bible to teach right from wrong, you are gonna have a bad time. It’s one of the most immoral books ever written and should not be exposed to children under 18… ever.

      • christianh

        Admittedly it’s nothing that doesn’t come on Reality TV or Jerry Springer…

        But I agree that children shouldn’t be told you know what it says…

      • WilmRoget

        So you really have no clue what is in the Bible, and we’re to take advice about ‘right from wrong’ from someone who identifies as ‘slutty mary’.

      • SluttyMary

        ◄ Ezekiel 23:20 ►There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

        Sounds a lot like bad porn to me…

      • WilmRoget

        That reflects poorly on you then, in more ways than one.

        You see, Ezekiel was a prophet, sent to call the people of Israel back into relationship with God, and the book of Ezekiel frequently used sexual excess, prostitution and adultery as a metaphor for idolatry.

        “The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, there were two women, daughters of the same mother. 3 They became prostitutes in Egypt, engaging in prostitution from their youth. In that land their breasts were fondled and their virgin bosoms caressed. 4 The older was named Oholah, and her sister was Oholibah. They were mine and gave birth to sons and daughters. Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.”

        So what you see as poor sexually arousing material, is an attempt to rebuke people for idolatry through shockingly graphic sexual metaphors.

        So thanks for affirming my point.

      • SluttyMary

        it’s smut and filth and still should not be shown to children…. ever.

      • WilmRoget

        You sound like so many homophobes and fundies it ain’t funny. Funny how bigots always want to have control over the information other people have access to.

      • Fylcone Ravynwulfe

        hey wilm, you rebuke her for stating her opinion. she didn’t tell you what to do, but you sure told her…ever read the sermon on the Mt, willy? “By whatsoever measure you judge a man, by that measure shall you be judged” also in there is this gem “judge not lest ye be judged yourself” Jesus told his disciples repeatedly that until he sat upon the White Judgement seat (read revelations) HE WASN’T ALLOWED TO JUDGE PEOPLE AND HE WAS GOD MADE MAN. HE IS THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA, AND HE IS NOT ALLOWED TO JUDGE ANYONE UNTIL THE APPOINTED TIME. for your info, Willy my boy, I am a twice ordained (two different faith systems) minister/priest. I did my seminary at Bob Jones University (greenville SC), So, i do know that of which I speak, and I am following the apostle Paul’s instructions insomuch that I have said what i have not in judgement, but for the edification of your soul. re-read Mathew 5-7, the entire book of James, and the proverbs before you once again put yourself on THE ALMIGHTY’S judgement seat. you have made the same mistake that Lucifer did, when he said to himself that he could do God’s job better than God could. meditate and pray on these things, for we must all “seek out our Father with deliberation, meditation, study and fear” you risk hellfire by putting yourself in God’s shoes.

        this goes to ANYONE who tries to do God’s job for Him. May peace of our Father above be with you always.

      • WilmRoget

        ” I did my seminary at Bob Jones University (greenville SC), So, i do know that of which I speak,”

        Not with those credentials. Heck, you don’t even know better than to scream in all caps on the internet.

        Nor do you realize that you complain at me for rebuking someone, but are doing the very same thing to me. Both of the passages you try to wield at me apply to you as well. And your condescending ‘ever hear of the sermon on the mount’ is the sin of pride on your part.

        ” I have said what i have not in judgement, but for the edification of your soul.”

        No, you posted in judgement for the amusement of your ego.

        “this goes to ANYONE who tries to do God’s job for Him.”

        Including you. The advice you give, woman who is literally forbidden to teach or instruct men, is advice you should live at least once.

      • real

        WilmRoget,For somebody who claims to have done all of this “seminary work” and is blabbering on about how self-righteous you are while you preach about judgment, you sure are a name-calling judgmental prick. I’m judging you, by the way, and I admit that. But, you, Holy Man, you pretty much judged everyone on here more than once, which you’ll also do to me. Problem is, I don’t give a fuck. Have fun picking out choice statements and calling me names, too.

      • WilmRoget

        “,For somebody who claims to have done all of this “seminary work” and is
        blabbering on about how self-righteous you are while you preach about
        judgment,”

        And none of that reflects what I have actually written in my posts. For example the data about seminary work is actually a quote I used from Fylcone Ravynwulfe’s post.

        Your verbal abuse only reflects poorly on you.

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        answer my above inquiries and get back to me,,,,

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        doing seminary work on a book of voodoo isn’t much of a resume-

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        read my replies to WilmRoget,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, enjoy!

      • MMikeJBenN

        You went to Bob Jones University, the racist school that that wretched Reagan tried to give tax breaks to?

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        homophobes? check out the white trash regressive religious tea party

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        how about those biblical lines telling us to (stone) kill women who attempt to enter marriage when they are not ‘virgin’?
        or,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, why is rape NOT mentioned as a “COMMANDMENT”…but using ‘gods’ name in vain is MORTAL SIN??
        help a secular out here–will ya?

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        a prophet sent to ” call Israel back in2 a relationship………”
        called by WHOM?????

      • WilmRoget

        Your incoherence posts don’t help you either. Don’t you want to acknowledge the fact that from the start, you’ve been completely wrong about every single thing?

        Atheism is a sick prejudice, an excuse to slander people so you can feel good inside.

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        wrong again my lachrymose friend–
        I view atheism also as a “religion” as atheism has beliefs
        Im agnostic——-
        incoherent? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is that the new troll word upon these posts when U cannot answer a simple question??
        PRAISE JEEEESUS!!! note- jesus was gay: no wife,,,,no kids,,,,,, never bad mouthed homosexuality,,,,ALL MALE REVUE ( disciples/apostles)
        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        hmmmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and the rise from the dead NOT CHRONICLED BY ROMANS? the ROMANS– who kept pristine records of all events in their territories???
        Hmmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,,,,

      • Mary Harris

        Your opinion

      • SluttyMary

        Well, it’s really based in fact… the bible has lots of disgusting cruel things in it. Especially parts not about how slavery is bad, but specific rules to treat your slaves by and then there is this gem “Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!”

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        then tell us; O sage wilm: and impart to me the wisdom needed to prove that noah could get to antartica/Australia/ north-and south- America to acquire ALL the animals,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
        —————– and: how the hell did he RETURN all the animals to those faraway spots??? star trek transporters???

      • WilmRoget

        Your snark indicates that you operate under the prejudice that all Christians are literalists like the ones you see on tv. Considering how young white men such as yourself as portrayed on tv, do you really want to be evaluated by that standard?

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        hey kreskin: Im a middle aged white male who grew up catholic- and in my ” travels” I have read much of the bible; ALL of the bhagavad gita,,,, ALL of TAO TE CHING,,,,,,conversations with god……..varieties of religious experience ( that’s a tough one),,,,,,,,,,and TONS of other spiritual literature amassed thru history ( much PRE dating the scurrilous and contradictory BIBLE)
        =====================================
        I must confess that I am impressed with thy easy2spot SPINNING away from my inquiry placed upon you: and U attempt to obfuscate by asking me a question which is COMPLETLY non sequitur.
        shall we ” evaluate” the insanity of the totally outdated BIBLE and how is subjugates women; embraces slavery and imbues such ridiculous stories as noah and Jonah and the “fact” that we are all descendants from NOAH ( based upon earthly capitulation). Shall we also discuss where CAIN got a wife? since there was just adam/eve/cain/abel it would tak at least 13 MORE years for adam and eve to pump out a woman who would then IMMEDIATELY be CAINS wife??? REALLY?
        You imbeciles believe this crap???
        *******************************************************
        allow me to make it simple enough for your bovaristic and limited self to comprehend:
        GOD——————– YES!!!!
        religion?????
        …………………… NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

      • WilmRoget

        Again, your abusive behavior only reflects your character. With every insult, you prove that atheism is as vile a homophobia, as dishonest, as disgusting.

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        my AGNOSTIC self is only abuuuusing your evident stupidity here; for everyone to see
        =======================================
        care to debate me on the tenets of your inept BIBLE?

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        hey scumbag,,,,,,i notice u didn’t reply to my larger ( below) post,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
        wha-a-a happened???

      • WilmRoget

        With every insult, you reveal your character, not mine. The nastier you are, the more you show that atheism is just another sick prejudice, like homophobia or racism – for homophobes and racists also rely on insults in place of reason, as you are doing.

      • Troll

        I see your making friends again, man you get around. Make sure you tell them all how right you are and how wrong they are.

      • WilmRoget

        Living up to your id, I see.

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        immoral and contradictory

      • WilmRoget

        Yes, you and your peers are both immoral and contradictory.

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        according to who? an idiot such as you who ONLY views a barbaric book ( BIBLE) as the ONLY truth?
        show me where I have been contradictory in what I have written here———–U already bounced any credibility by claiming im a “young white man” up in a prior post ( white yes; young? compared to dan akroyd or Mr T)
        immoral? Hmmmm,,,,,,,,,,maybe if I screw over women and garner slaves (see: bible) I can be as ‘moral” as you? or; bitch about gays marrying even though JESUS CHRIST NEVER said anything about gays? ( since he never married and had male apostles; maybe he was,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, homosexual??)
        =====================================
        now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, about that NOAH crap in your book-

      • WilmRoget

        Your abuse only proves that atheism is a sick and vicious prejudice. You slander people out of sadism, to make your self feel good about what must clearly be a terrible and pathetic life.

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        hey crybaby– im agnostic
        =========================
        hey crybaby– what about your outdated BOOK of voodoo( bible) views on slavery and women being KILLED if they dare enter “matrimony” not being virginal?
        or,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
        that splendid 10 commandments not mentioning RAPE as a sin; but using
        gods” name in vain is as sin????
        Hmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, mad magazine is far more accurate and worthy of being read
        ====================================
        don’t say “GODDAMNIT” but rape is ok

    • Mary Harris

      Well said

  • Diana Miller

    When Obama first ran for President, Christians all over our country were praying. Now, the proper prayer should have been, “God please let the man who is best for our country win.” Assuming that was their prayers, and they prayed the same thing, again, in 2012, then why are they upset that Obama won? Why is it they don’t believe their prayers were answered? Because they didn’t get their wish? But they got their prayers answered!!!What good is praying, if you can’t accept God’s answer?
    And, if they believe their prayers weren’t answered, then why do they continue to believe in God? After all, more than half the whole country was praying for the same thing (if they were praying “Thy will be done”)

    • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

      prayer is begging for the beggars wishes. if a tangible “god” does exist; and is ALL POWERFUL AND ALL KNOWING….. doesn’t it reason that said GOD doesn’t need the infantile beggings of near-useless inhabitants of one of the spots in the sky? Does PRAYER(begging) make/influence any changes in what the “god” has already determined to “be”?
      =================================================
      and,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, why is is SOOOOOOOO difficult for “god” to fully cure an amputee?

    • MMikeJBenN

      Those “christians” are Christian in name only. That is why can’t recognize God’s help.

      • Mark

        I call them ‘vanity Christians’.

  • danielistical

    Archie
    Bunker (Carol O Conner) Said it best,,, You know what faith is?? it is when you
    believe in something that no one in their right mind would believe”

    “Is it not strange that apparently normal everyday people
    for six days a week act normal,, then
    all of a sudden on Sunday the go to a meeting where they believe they are
    communicating with and eating the body,,along with drinking the blood of some
    2,000 year old space guy?????” the very reason why conditioning minor children into and
    superstitious/religious belief should be a felony. It is child abuse and
    destroys ability to think critically for life.
    Religion is the biggest mental illness that is
    left untreated in human existence.

    • VeggieTart

      Mark Twain was a little more succinct when he said faith is believing what you know ain’t so.

    • WilmRoget

      Your derogatory and degrading false characterizations of Christian belief, while no doubt amusing to you and engorging for your ego, only parallel the vicious things that homophobes say about homosexuals.

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        why is YOUR book correct,,,,,,,and everyone elses Incorrect?

      • WilmRoget

        Who said that everyone else’s book is incorrect?

        “funny how the ONLY sociopaths visually ”

        Your fantasy does not reflect reality. Be careful about the slurs you sling, when you engage in the same behavior toward even more people.

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        hey crybaby,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, find me a white trash regressive republican “CHRISTIAN” who says that OTHERS religious books are correct and I will give U 10K ….OK?
        —————————————————————-
        NOTE— I treat all religions equally
        …..as voodoo/superstition
        PROVE ME WRONG– lets see your ersatz ‘god” fully cure an amputee

      • WilmRoget

        With every insult, you not only prove the ugliness of your character, you show that atheism is a disgusting and vicious prejudice, just like homophobia.

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        hmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,seems 2 me that you already know inequivocally that you cannot find one of your regressive ” Christians” who say that anyone ELSES ” book” (see: superstition) is accurate/ correct….
        OH an again: im not atheist———– thus U again show your limited intellectual ‘ ability” to discern
        =======================================
        now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, about your flaccid ” god” curing an amputee….

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        how about my 100% accurate ‘characterizations’???
        funny how the ONLY sociopaths visually degrading gays in America these days are regressive white trash “Christians” marinated in the vecordious tea party political universe.
        ===============================================
        but ; hey– they are practicing GODS “love”

      • WilmRoget

        Your degrading and disgusting posts only reflect your character, particularly, a sadistic need to denigrate others in order to feel good, and an inability to formulate reasoned rebuttals.

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        formulate seasoned rebuttals????
        hey kreskin: U still did NOT tell me how NOAH got all those animals to from,,,,,,,,,and BACK TO,,,,,,,,,, all those locations after the ” great flood”
        ========================================
        season me lightly with your answer.

      • John Michael Hutton

        When confronted by logic, your brain tilts. YOu have no answers just invectives.

      • WilmRoget

        Your insults only show that you cannot refute what I wrote.

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        what exactly did U write that is immune from refutation???

      • WilmRoget

        Your derogatory fantasies only reflect your character. With each insult, you show that atheism is as vile as homophobia and racism.

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        hey stupid,,,,,,,,,,,,,
        (a) U did NOT did NOT did NOT answer my inquiry
        (b) U call my opinions ‘fantasies’; but yours reality?

  • TommyNIK

    “fear and paranoia are bred from a lack of faith”

    Untrue. As an atheist I HAVE no “faith” i.e. belief without evidence. Faith requires the intentional suspension of critical thinking, logic, and reason. I have not, cannot, and will not live a life of faith. And DO NOT confuse the faith one might have in a spouse or loved one who has earned trust and reliability through a lifetime of evidence with faith in an unproven and quite likely mythical deity which, to my mind, is infantile.

    If I fear anything it is the resurgent Christian Right in the US whose agenda is to turn our country into a soft theocracy…..one law at a time. They are passionate, well-financed due to their unholy alliance with corporate America, and they have friends and allies at ALL levels of federal and state government.

    Deny this at your peril.

    • pal

      Doesn’t matter if you don’t have faith in God…not for you…

    • Guest

      I dont deny this. I too am an atheist, well more of an agnostic. And I believe that we have an immense amount of faith, in ourselves, in humanity, in the planet, in the fact that truth and decency will out. We have faith in critical thought, logic, and reason. It is faith! And OUR kind faith is what combats fear and paranoia. Now when a person denies faith in all those things I stated above, it really doesnt vibe with our basic biological functions to evolve and grow. Thus creating a very weak, malleable, confused, often times sick, person. These people don’t have faith in ANYTHING. Not God, the bible, Jesus, each other, science, truth, the planet, especially themselves. They are the ignorant. And the only thing the ignorant can do is conform to their surroundings. What is it that their neighbors are doing? Thinking? Eating? Shopping? Wearing? Perfect candidates for corporate enslavement and the military!

      • MrLightRail

        Not the military, but those corporations who supply it. They don’t give a rat’s ass about the servicemen and women.

    • Terri

      Sounds like you actually agree with the statement that fear and paranoia are bred from a lack of faith. Are you filled with fear and paranoia? It doesn’t sound like you are. “Guest” is right on–we all have faith in something. A person, a principle, ourselves. Something. But it does seem like a Christian’s lack of religious faith, specifically, breeds a certain type of fear and paranoia.

    • christianh

      You’re WORSE than the WORST bible-thumper… You’re saying that the Creation isn’t proof of a Creator and that your mind is so small you have to consider the “You’ll go to hell, because an omnipotent being is watching you” crap…

      That’s what you are talking about not the fact that there is sentience in the Creation…

    • Laura Hurt

      I think you misunderstand what Allen is saying here. He is not saying atheists have no faith and therefore are afraid. He says that believers have a weird stance on their beliefs. On the one side they are as religious as they come, on the other hand they seem to be very afraid, despite the fact that belief is supposed to strengthen people.

    • WilmRoget

      As an atheist, you are a bigot, just like homophobes, and of course you rely on faith in yourself and your peers.

      Your ugly characterizations of people of faith only demonstrate that atheism is as foul as racism and homophobia, and that it exists solely to tell people like you that you are innately superior, without having do to anything even approaching superior.

      • gian keys LOVES shemale porn

        many of us agnostics / free thinkers have NO problem with a concept of a “creator” ( GOD)
        ============================================
        the problem lies when a finite flawed being ( humans) scream that THEY KNOW WHAT(who) GOD IS-
        GOD cannot be defined as GOD simply IS:
        religion is for lemmings and is a control mechanism for power and finances

      • John Michael Hutton

        here here.

      • There is no correlation whatsoever between atheism (or agnosticism) and bigotry just as it does not necessarily follow that if someone is a Catholic priest he automatically molests little boys or that because someone is African-American he is naturally good at basketball. Your arguments are essentially worthless.

      • WilmRoget

        Your empty dismissal only demonstrates incompetence and failure on your part.

        Atheism fits the definition of prejudice, and it demonstrates the diagnostic traits of prejudice. It is simply a ugly mechanism through which people elevate their perceived social standing by denigrating other people. It has no other purpose or benefit or role.

      • You write utter nonsense, unsupported by anything resembling facts or supporting evidence. There is nothing in the disbelief in a deity of the skeptic’s insistence that nothing should be accepted that cannot be supported by careful observation and scientific method. These are ways of thinking and approaching the world, universe, etc. Most of us have no problem whatsoever with people of faith if what the faith does is teach them to treat their fellow human beings with compassion and kindness. Our problems arise only when the likes of yourself try to incorporate your religious beliefs into law or the science classroom. Then trust me….we won’t stand idly by.

      • WilmRoget

        Once again, your empty dismissal accomplish nothing beyond attempting to puff up your ego.

        ‘There is nothing in the disbelief in a deity or of the skeptic’s
        insistence that nothing should be accepted that cannot be supported by
        careful observation and scientific method.”

        Your claim is unsupported by anything resembling facts or evidence.

        “Most of us have no problem whatsoever with people of faith if”

        Yeah, homophobes practice conditional acceptance too – they will have no problem whatsoever with gay people if . . .”

        “Then trust me….we won’t stand idly by.”

        Nor I am going to stand idly by while you and your peers revile and denigrate people of faith.

      • Actually I can see where I should have finished my thought there but somehow didn’t. What I should have written is:

        “There is nothing in the disbelief in a deity or of the skeptic’s
        insistence that nothing should be accepted that cannot be supported by
        careful observation and scientific method that requires that he denigrate the beliefs of others.” If you can demonstrate otherwise, though the use of valid data, then please do and I will retract the statement. Until then, you are just spouting nonsense.

        This being said, your comment linking skeptics to homophobes is a false parallel. To demand that religion be kept out of the law and out of the science classroom is nothing at all like discrimination against gays and lesbians and you should be ashamed of yourself (intellectually) for even suggesting it.

        Finally, my peers and I do not denigrate people of faith. We challenge the validity of what you claim to be fact, which is not at all the same thing. If it is offensive to you to have your beliefs challenged, that’s too bad. In a democracy, the one right you don’t have, is the right to not be offended by what someone else thinks.

      • WilmRoget

        “This being said, your comment linking skeptics to homophobes is a false parallel.”

        No. And your reasoning is irrelevant to the parallel between homophobia and atheism.o not denigrate people of faith.”

        “Finally, my peers and I do not denigrate people of faith.”

        Of course you do, but more importantly, homophobes insist that they do not denigrate homosexuals. They simply challenge the validity of what we claim to be fact – the truth of our lives.

        Atheism is a vicious prejudice, just like homophobia.

      • It is a false parallel and nothing you have written here or anywhere in this thread is supported by a shred of evidence. What you assert without evidence, I can dismiss as easily.

        I am a skeptic, by some definitions an atheist, though not mine as an atheist must know something I don’t. Figure that out if you can.

        Now as to atheism…..the atheists view of the universe is no less valid than yours. You say God exists, he says God does not. Neither of you can prove your contention. But if you want to argue that atheism is a vicious prejudice….please first of all examine the history of Christianity which is replete with the persecution and mistreatment (wholesale slaughter) of non-Christians or Christians of the wrong denomination. We’ll limit ourselves to Christianity for now though there are plenty of other examples.

      • WilmRoget

        “It is a false parallel”

        No, it is not.

        “nothing you have written here or anywhere in this thread is supported by a shred of evidence.”

        Your empty dismissal accomplishes nothing. Bear in mind, atheism is not supported by a shred of evidence.

        “I am a skeptic,”

        There is no evidence to support that claim, only your word. Since you don’t take the word of people of faith, your word is not admissible either.

        “please first of all examine the history of Christianity which is replete with the persecution and mistreatment”

        Nice prejudice, judging all Christians by the actions of some. Of course, all of that terrible behavior was committed by humans, so, by your reasoning, you as a human are guilty.

        “We’ll limit ourselves to Christianity”

        So you don’t want to acknowledge the atrocities committed under atheist regimes like communist China and the U.S.S.R. How convenient.

        Atheism is a prejudice. Deal, or don’t deal, but it remains a prejudice.

      • Your coments are laughable. First of all it is you who has been making assertions without any evidence and what you assert without evidence, I can dismiss without evidence. It is your assertions, not my dismissals of them that are empty.

        You need to pay more attention to what you read. At no point do I judge all Christians by the actions of the others. However the history of Christianity is replete with instances of Christians persecuting or massacring others; the Holocaust, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the pogroms in Poland and Russia, all the acts of Christians.

        My comment about limiting the discussion to Christianity is not to intended to deny the crimes of Soviet or Chinese communists, but to keep the discussion limited to one religious group with a particularly poor track record. I could have picked Islam instead but Christianity has a longer and worse track record. As to the China and the Soviet Union, they were atheists by virtue of being communists, not the other way around. Their repression of religious groups was inspired by totalitarian political ideology, not competing religious ideology and it was not limited to religious dissenters. It was directed at anyone who dissented in any way at all from Communist party ideology.

        As to whether or not I can offer any evidence of being a skeptic, this is irrelevant. I have no need to prove this to anybody but myself so whether you accept my word or don’t makes no difference.

        Having dismissed your unfounded rantings for what they are I now dismiss you. Reply, don’t reply, I don’t care. I will waste no more time with arguing with you as you have clearly renounced the use of reason, and to continue to argue with you would be like administering medicine to the dead. Sir, you are dismissed.

      • WilmRoget

        “Your coments are laughable”

        Your empty dismissals accomplish nothing.

        ” First of all it is you who has been making assertions without any
        evidence and what you assert without evidence, I can dismiss without
        evidence.”

        Again, I have provided evidence. And atheism is an assertion without evidence, so by your own reasoning, atheism can be dismissed without evidence.

        And you have not provided evidence of any of your assertions, so again, by your own reasoning, everything you say can be dismissed without evidence.

        “You need to pay more attention to what you read.’

        There is no evidence to support your claim, so it is dismissed.

        “At no point do I judge all Christians by the actions of the others.”

        False, and remember, there is no evidence to support your claim, so it is dismissed.

        “However the history of ” of humanity, including atheists, is fully of people persecuting others. Therefore you are condemned by your own reasoning, unless, of course, you can prove that you are not a human.

        “My comment about limiting ”

        Of course it was. You were attempting to create a false impression, and such deception only reflects your character. And, there is no evidence to support your claim regarding your motives, so it is dismissed.

        You see, you’ve not only made every word of your own posts useless, by creating an excuse to dismiss me, you demonstrated that atheism is indeed a vicious and degrading prejudice.

      • lisa johnston

        i agree,,atheism is by far the most bigoted group of people that i have ever incountered, they are also the most arrogant and rude i have ever had a conversation with.

      • John Michael Hutton

        REally? I thought all Africans are good at basketball or singing and dancing. YOu mean they aren’t?

      • John Michael Hutton

        People of “faith” need a crutch to deal with every day problems. Weak people need a crutch, strong people don’t.

      • WilmRoget

        With every insult, you demonstrate that atheism is a prejudice – an excuse to denigrate other people to make yourself feel superior. You are engaged in exactly the same behavior as that of homophobes.

    • John Michael Hutton

      As an agnostic, you wouldn’t believe in anything but an atheist does believe in something and therefore you are susceptible to faith or paranoia or any other human emotion, don’t you think?

  • Mainah

    Just on a side note, prayer isn’t telling God what to do. It’s more like a conversation for some of us. A centering experience. I pray when I feel like I am going in circles. That’s my form of meditation, I guess. I do believe in a higher power for spirituality but I would never go up to another human being and say “You have to think the way I do.” That’s not my idea of God. I guess it’s organized religion that I have an issue with. They use it, contradict it then get upset if you question them. I was raised in an Irish Catholic home. My Mom stopped dragging me to CCD because I kept getting into trouble at Church. I don’t see why blessing the Priest back was bad. It just seemed like the nice thing to do since he was doing it for us.
    Not a happy ride home with my Mom but Dad was laughing his ass off!

    • Guest

      I too am a recovering catholic! What really is interesting to me is how some of us grew up and got the hell away from it. And how others just stayed right there, in that town, in that church, with those people. Married the same, sent their kids to the same church, school….etc….IT NEVER occurred to me to do that. I was dreaming of NYC, LA, Paris, London, fame, fortune, from age 4. I couldn’t wait to flee! Some of us are just wired differently.

      • Mainah

        When I went to visit my Mom, I had told her I had being going to other churches to see what other religions were about and I thought she was about to have a stroke! I was in my twenties and being curious, I figured I should check them out, barring the ones that required conversion. I was test driving, not buying, but she said exactly what I felt was wrong with my spirituality and organized religion.

        She said “but the tradition!” and I countered “but isn’t it all the same God? Just different views of the Bible?” and she countered with a louder version of the first. I figured that couldn’t be it. I use to look around the Church and see people mumble the recitations. Sometimes I would say weird stuff just to see if anyone noticed. They didn’t. I can’t live that hollow.

        I found the same type of issues in the other Churches, though. I did not find serenity there. I was always fond of the fact that spirituality is an internal thing.

    • MrLightRail

      Ah, that priest was most likely chuckling too. To be blessed by a child. I would say that that blessing would have more meaning. :}

      • Mainah

        I didn’t think he minded but my Mom sure did and the older ladies of the church. Oopsie. It would not be the last time I created a stir. The final straw I think hit when I asked if Jesus and Mary Magdalene were a couple. That was it for her. She gave up afterwards. Well, c’mon … it would make sense. She was there during a time when women had limited roles and seemed to be in the midst of things. That particular Father was not amused. He thought I was just trying to be smart but it seemed reasonable to me. Right then, I figured … according to what we were taught, I’d be lucky if I got purgatory. 😉

      • Sherri G

        Gnostics have them as a couple…. Its likely

    • Happy with myself

      Your experience sounds like mine. I definitely have a problem with organized religion and I grew up Irish catholic. My grandmother was Irish. Beautiful person, mass every day and novena on Tuesdays and First Fridays. Do they still have Novenas? Personally, I live by one rule. Do unto others etc, etc, Works for me!

      • Mainah

        Beats me. My Mom was lucky if she could keep me still in the pew. I remember my Grams gave me a little book called Daily Missals in hopes I would be more engaged. Yeah .. no. CCD was torture. Class on a Saturday was something my mother dreaded as my sister and I would pitch huge fits. Oh, and for my First Penance/Communion …. I asked that Father how he could give me absolution when that was what Judgment day was for? I was not a good Catholic.

  • Muzzlehatch

    Or as Niebuhr put it, “Frantic Othodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt. It is when we are unsure that we are doubly sure.”

  • JimNauseam

    So many of them were CONVINCED that God made George W. Bush president, to wield the holy sword of Christ against the heathen hordes of Iraq, that they can’t quite wrap their minds around the fact that God let Obama be president too. No wonder they’re equally convinced that he’s not “legitimate” president.

    • John Michael Hutton

      Iraq was an after thought of Bush the Stupid after he misread a map. He thought he was invading Iran. But you know, the boy just isn’t very bright and what few brain cells he had were destroyed by booze and drugs.

    • Troll

      Many but not all, God puts all that are in power there, Bush, Obama, both there by the will of God. Same with all leaders in the world. Good or bad in the end they all are in power has God wills them to be there.

  • Gary Menten

    “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If
    we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of
    the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The
    bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even
    to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power
    over you, you almost never get it back.”

    Carl Sagan

    “No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means”

    G.B Shaw

  • Gary Menten

    “Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication– after
    that it is only an account of something which that person says was a
    revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to
    believe it, it can not be incumbent on me to believe it in the same
    manner; for it was not a revelation made to ME, and I have only his word
    for it that it was made to him.”

    [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

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  • lisa johnston

    To all , I am a follower, (dicsiple) of Jesus Christ. Defined, that would mean that I was aware of my filthy, sinful humanness and repented , asked for forgiveness and asked Jesus to take control of my life. I believe in the Trinity and every word in the Bible. That being said, I first would like to clear up some issues about your expeirences with or your utter lack of understand in what a “Christian” is supposed to be/act like. I no longer call myself a Christian because of the world’s negative (frequently correct) view of us. I really want to apologize to you all for the stupid and mean things that we say and do you but there are a few reasons that we don’t live up to the perfect people that we’re expected to be.
    1st: just because we’re saved by the grace of God does not mean we’re now perfect! It just means that we are still sinners who say and do sinful, stupid stuff daily ,,, the only difference is that we’re saved and now have the Holy Spirit living in us which now convicts us daily on our stupid choices and we then learn how to do things better the next time around.—-
    2nd: many people call themselves Christian because they “believe in God and Jesus . Well even satan and his demons believe in God and Jesus too, big deal, these kind of people are not truley saved at all and you can spot them out as people who never change for the better or live out their Christian faith daily.
    3rd: at note about the Catholic faith,,,i’m sorry for anyone who is brought up in that faith. nowhere in the bible does it speak of that you must confess your sins to the priest, that Mary is our mother and should be prayed to or that you have to say a certian amount of a certian kind of prayer to get your sins removed . i could go on and on about the rules of this church that are nowhere written in the Bible but the bottom line is- the rules were sinful, man (or priest) made rules,
    thanks for letting me clear up some of these issues just remember please, there are some of us (Christians) who are quite nice and try to live better each and every day.

    • Guest

      please excuse the mis-spellings and typos. se, i’m not perfect at all! lol

    • lisa johnston

      please excuse the mis-spellings / typos,, see, i’m not perfect in the least! lol

    • Just a thought….If Jesus has taken control of your life and you are still not perfect, then does it not also follow that Jesus is not perfect and if Jesus is not perfect, then why call him God?

      • lisa johnston

        hey Gary, Jesus is perfect and sits on the right hand of the perfect, loving God. We (followers of Jesus) will never be perfect this side of Heaven because this is satan’s domain until Jesus come back to destroy him forever and finally. You see, he’s waiting in His time for all to hear about Him and then recieve or reject His truth. So, until that time, since we all have to live in this sick, sinful world He gave us the Holy Spirit and The Bible to help us be more Christ-like till He comes. Hope that clears things up!

      • There is no valid scientific evidence whatsoever to support a single thing you wrote nor to support any notion of his divinity, but thanks for your input.

      • lisa johnston

        you know, science says that in order for something to be valid and true, it needs to be repeated. well, i know that God’s creation wasn’t repeated but neither was the big bang. something to chew on. i’ll have my faith fall on Jesus, not nothing.

      • Gary Menten

        That’s a completely idiotic statement, and given the lack of understanding you bible-thumping morons have for science, you’re up against some pretty stiff competition. Science says nothing like that. What it says is that experiments have to be repeatable with the same results. The Big Bang is NOT an experiment, but rather the theory that best explains the scientific observations we have made. These observations are testable and the test results are repeatable.

        We also don’t know…we really can’t say at this point that there aren’t a number of other universes out there that would have started in exactly the same way as ours.

  • MMikeJBenN

    Those republikkkan “christians” are not Christians at all. REAL Christians worship GOD, not money or anything else of the earth fashioned by men’s hands, just GOD. Period.

  • John Michael Hutton

    If God is all-knowing and has a plan, why get up in the morning and go to work? Just pray for Him to provide and wait for it to come to you. Right

  • “Christian” does not mean “Christ-Like” to these people.

  • marymcreynolds

    Good observations but you didn’t have to be so snarky about it. Christians are pretty pathetic examples of faith in action. So what?