Two More Shootings That Debunk Several of the Arguments Made by Gun Nuts

gun-nuts3As many of you probably heard, our country recently endured two more public shootings.  One in Nevada where two police officers and a civilian were tragically killed, and the other at Seattle Pacific University where one person was murdered.

And sadly, as these shootings continue to occur, it only makes guns rights activists believe that more guns are the answer.

Except, with both of these shootings, a few popular pro-gun talking points were essentially debunked.

First, in Seattle, the gunman was taken down by a “good guy with pepper spray” – no gun needed.  Not only that, it was the limited ammo capacity of their gun that reduced the rounds the shooter was able to fire.  This ultimately led to the shooter being incapacitated as they tried to reload.

So, tell me again how limits on magazine size wouldn’t restrict some of the lethal capabilities of those who might commit such heinous acts of violence?  Because it seems a limited ammo capacity is exactly what prevented the shooting in Seattle from being much worse.

Then there’s the shooting in Nevada where two shooters targeted two police officers, murdering them inside of a local CiCi’s Pizza restaurant.  They also killed someone at a nearby Walmart before killing themselves.

There goes that whole “openly carrying guns” thing being a deterrent, huh?  I’m pretty sure both officers were displaying guns at the time and that didn’t at all seem to deter two criminals who were intent on committing their horrific crimes.

And Nevada is one of the most pro-gun states in the country.  Where was the “good guy with a gun” to prevent the murders of these three victims?  Hell, Walmart sells guns and that didn’t save the innocent victim who was murdered there.

Nobody in CiCi’s Pizza had a gun in one of the most pro-gun states in the country?  Heck, they allow citizens to both openly carry and have concealed handguns in Nevada.

And I’m not even going to get too deep into the fact that they laid a cloth featuring the Gadsden Flag (aka the tea party flag) across the bodies of the officers and supposedly yelled, “This is a revolution.”  Or the fact that they supposedly were at the Bundy ranch showing their support with other “open carry” gun nuts just a few weeks back.

But here we have two different shootings which essentially show that:

  • Limited ammo capacity can drastically reduce how lethal a shooter can be.
  • A “good guy with pepper spray” can incapacitate someone with a gun – you don’t need more guns.
  • Criminals intent on killing aren’t deterred by openly displayed guns.
  • In a very pro-gun state no “good guy with a gun” stopped two “bad guys with guns” from murdering three people.
  • That when guns are openly displayed criminals can potentially take those weapons to use later (the two shooters in Nevada took the officers guns after murdering them, though no reports as of writing this indicate if they were used in their shootout with police officers).

All of those debunk several key talking points gun nuts often use when battling those of us who believe the best way to prevent some of these shootings is by doing our best to ensure bad guys with guns, don’t get guns.

Because at the end of the day, that’s the only way we’re ever going to reduce gun violence in this country.  By doing our best to ensure bad guys don’t get guns.


Allen Clifton

Allen Clifton is a native Texan who now lives in the Austin area. He has a degree in Political Science from Sam Houston State University. Allen is a co-founder of Forward Progressives and creator of the popular Right Off A Cliff column and Facebook page. Be sure to follow Allen on Twitter and Facebook, and subscribe to his channel on YouTube as well.

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  • kim dyer

    The person shot in Walmart WAS a “good guy with a gun”. He was armed. He was confronting the man when the woman shot him.

    • Lorraine Robins

      I agree he tried but ultimately it didn’t work.

      • Bine646

        Atleast he went out trying, if he didnt intervene and slow these assailants who knows how many more innocent victims there could be

      • Jay Yarm

        The report I read said that the male assailant fired into the ceiling and told everybody to clear out. The buddy of “the good guy with the gun” left safely, along with a bunch of others. The good guy said he had to do something proactive – unfortunately, he fixated on the male and apparently walked right past the female, who shot him in the back of the head. If he hadn’t had a gun (which his mother said he usually didn’t carry), he’d still be alive.

      • Bine646

        But instead he did a heroic act, very honorable, very brave, very courageous

      • freethinker666

        He IMHO was stupid, if he had taken a minute to access the situation, instead of playing Rambo he may have realized there were two shooters.

      • Lane

        Actually it did. There was no other shots fired after this except the ones they ended themselves with.

      • RocBusinessman

        Well thats true if you don’t count the running gunfight in walmart with police

      • chris

        Oh, but it did work Lorraine. Tell me…how many others died in wall-mart while they were occupied by the concealed carrier? ANSWER: ZERO. He gave everybody in that store a chance to save themselves, as he sacrificed his own life to give them that opportunity.

    • gian keysTOOEASY flat mom

      as NOT mentioned on FOX “news” and by the NRA

  • Preacher son

    I guess that the NRA’s “good guy with a gun” jut doesn’t work. I’m sorry for the loss but that man just might be alive if he wasn’t “carring”.

    • Bine646

      This is one case, google search others where citizens have saved others w their concealed weapon- like the grandpa in florida

    • chris

      And how many wall-mart shoppers lives were saved because of his heroic actions? ANSWER: ALL OF THEM.

      • Preacher son

        ALL OF THEM ??? Show me those satistics . I truly believe someone is pulling sh*t out of their ass. Like you, I don’t know all the facts but….

  • Christopher Belanger

    Just as said the good guy with a gun was murdered as he tried to intervene

    • chris

      Yep, as he saved EVERY OTHER PERSON IN THE STORE with his HEROIC actions.

  • Lorraine Robins

    Not sure Rachel is right about my state of Nevada allowing people to carry guns out in the open. The guy in Walmart had a concealed weapon and it was legal. I’m anti-gun myself, but I believe the man had good intentions. This is a tragedy and for us this was very close to home.

    • Alex Alegado

      Nevada is an open carry state. You can carry a holstered handgun or revolver out in the open without a permit.

    • chris

      Lorraine…..answer this question (if you can). How many people shopping in wall-mart were saved because of this mans heroic actions? ANSWER: ALL OF THEM.

  • chupacabrito

    the thing about arming everyone is that you never know who the assailants are, and it makes a ‘good guy’s job that much harder, possibly even deadly.

  • PaulJmsn

    Good points to be made in this article, but one phrase struck me:

    “…as they tried to reload.”

    This got me to thinking. Hollywood (no, I’m not going to blame them for the epidemic in gun violence, but they’re not helping) has made reloading look too easy. Pop out an empty clip, pop a full one in, it looks like it takes a second or two at most. It can’t be as simple as that in real life. This guy was trying to reload and there was evidently plenty of time for somebody with pepper spray to bring him down.

    • Alex Alegado

      It’s no exaggeration. You can swap a mag in a semi-auto hand gun in less than 2 seconds. Faster if you practice and if the mag is conveniently to hand.

      • PaulJmsn

        I stand corrected. Thank you, sir.

      • 1laughman

        The problem is when a shooter is in the middle of a rampage they can’t think straight and reloading a gun becomes much harder.. This isn’t the first time a shooter was stopped or killed when he went to reload his weapon…

      • Bine646

        Called practice, theyll figure it out eventually.

      • Alex Alegado

        Agreed. This is where body armor and other appropriate gear come into play. Those guys that robbed the Bank of America in Los Angeles several years ago illustrate how effective preparation can be although, ultimately, they still failed.

    • silversax42

      This was a shotgun – no detachable magazine, rounds are fed into the tubular magazine one at a time. Shotgun reloading is painfully slow (and sometimes just plain painful as your thumb is easy to catch in the loading gate) unless you spend a lot if time practicing. Even a novice with a pistol can reload in under 2 seconds.

    • chris

      It takes less than half a second to change magazines. Less if you are a skilled shooter. I can do it in 3 tenths of a second. It is not hard. But………if you knew ANYTHING AT ALL about guns, you would know this.

      • PaulJmsn

        And I acknowledged it when Alex Alegado corrected me.

      • Preacher son

        And you can leap a tall building in a single bound.

  • Lorraine Wheatley

    Limits on bullets,background checks, very good. If you see people walking around armed,do you think you can read a persons mind? hell no! He/she can walk up and blow you and a dozen others away before you or someone else can stop them. Now they can blend in and kill. Thanks gun nuts for giving them cover.

    • Bine646

      Is this something new? No, no its not. When you say gun nuts, you think white conservative am i right? What about the hiphop community promoting guns n murder? They part of your gun nut classification?

    • cat lady

      They can walk up behind you with a knife and stab you, are we going to mask knives illegal too. Take away the guns and they will just find a different weapon.

      • John L

        So let them find another weapon. Making them have do it up close and personal is more of a deterrent then doing it from hundreds of feet away.. Making the decision easy for them is clearly not working ..no one is is under any illusions that all guns will be banned.. Just making it harder is a good start..

      • chris

        You do know that if u ban guns, a HUGE black market will open up for guns. Then we will be able to get FULLY AUTOMATIC weapons. Is that what you want???

      • Lorraine Wheatley

        They can walk up behind a group of people and shoot ten. Please do not give me that tired OLD argument

  • Lb

    This article is plain stupid! If A and B then Q = vampire bat way of thinking!

    • gian keysTOOEASY flat mom

      lb= another regressive crybaby who posts and runs away
      ———————————————————————————–
      lets all applaud crybaby regressive white trash!!

  • Phil Jacobs

    Just because a state is pro-gun doesn’t mean that everyone is openly carrying. It could be that the community is against guns. There wasa “good guy’ ” with a gun. This story is missing a whole slew of facts, the officers weren’t planning on getting murdered. They were on lunch and complacent. One thing I know is complacency kills

  • Matthew Reece

    Pepper spray can incapacitate a gun user, but a gun is more effective, especially at long range.

    Criminals intent on killing may or may not be deterred by openly displayed guns, but this can never be solved empirically because there is no way to observe or count a shooting that did not happen.

    As for the Nevada case, the absence of enough good people with guns is an argument for more armament, not less.

    • Alex Alegado

      One wonders if more people were openly carrying that day if the Las Vegas couple would have A) shot them since they would have been threats to their “revolution” or B) behaved themselves since armed citizens could have stopped them?

      Depending on the Bad Guys, do more armed citizens mean the Bad Guys just do not act out in the first place or that Bad Guys adjust accordingly?

      • Matthew Reece

        We cannot know the answers to such questions because we would have to be able to observe an alternate timeline in which more people were openly carrying that day and compare the result. We would then have to do this for every shooting incident. As this is not possible, the correct approach to the issue is a priori (rationalism) rather than a posteriori (empiricism).

  • pj jones

    LMFAO I knew you democrats were stupid but Jesus this shit takes the cake…take away guns from law abiding citizens makes for only the criminals to have them plain and simple. There is this thing called the black market where u can attain any weapon u want! take em away and the black market will thrive…and we will be defensless. You people are hell bent on turning this country into a communist nation. Take guns away and make people dependent on the government for healthcare. If you have ever read Karl Marx those are the first things you do to make a communist society…your boy Obama ignores the constitution and puts terrorists back into circulation!!! He should be tried and punished..

  • Robby Robinson

    The suspect reloading had NOTHING to do with limited magazine capacity!!! It was a shotgun MORONS!!